EPISODE 461: Cognitive Distortions

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Mastery Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.

Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm bringing a solo episode to you on cognitive distortions. And I, uh, had sent an email out about this a couple weeks ago and, uh, you could always get on our e list if you wanna go to the Facebook group and just search our email.

As you can get on there, you could email me. kevin@modern-jockey.com. If you'd like to. We send out a Tuesday email that's, uh, informative and we also send out a Thursday email, uh, letting you know about our podcast episodes and a little quick breakdown of that. Uh, so I wrote a little email about that, but I, I thought it'd be good to, um, do a podcast episode on it.

We. We have a lot of listeners. We have, you know, we get about 50,000 downloads a month on the podcast. The email list is healthy too, but not as much of a reach on the podcast. So I wanted, uh, I wanted to get this out on the, the podcast. Before we do just a couple little housekeeping [00:01:00] things. We're kind of, uh, in the early part of 2026, we, we had a great 2025 at MCM.

We had, uh, 21% revenue growth maintained. Healthy profit margin. We, we grew our, our East Mastermind has been filled for a couple years now. We grew the West Mastermind very steadily, and we're getting close to maxing that one out. But I, I would venture a guess in 20, the 2027 West will be filled. Uh, we've added quite a few clinics.

Uh, we have. Quite a few clinics now that are under our traditional coaching program slash marketing done for you. We have a lot of people that do both, uh, the coaching and the marketing done for you. We have a lot of people that do the coaching and so it's been really cool to see that growth. We had another good turnout in 2025 for the, um, online course we did on cash confidence.

So that was exciting. And we, [00:02:00] uh, brought on, we had some co opportunities, right? We're working directly, we've been working directly with Motion Palpation Institute for quite a few years now. Um, FTCA, uh, we, we've been working with Kenis Medical. Uh, we've been working with, um. Uh, Darcy Sullivan as a podcast sponsor.

We had track set as podcast sponsors, you may know. And, uh, it's just been great to work with them. We added, um, another entity. We added, um, a fix, right? The International Federation of Sports Chiropractors, where I'm on their commission for helping them with marketing. So another great collaboration there.

Uh, we, I don't want to forget, we also work with the North Carolina. State association. So if you represent a state association, we have a really cool program around marketing to help, uh, the, your members with marketing at a very, um, [00:03:00] digestible way. So that's been, that's been cool. Uh, we've done a lot of good work with Cairo up, and so I think one of the things I'm proud of, not only in our.

Just overall business growth at MCM, um, but how we've helped chiropractors, um, grow their business, how we've helped, um, other entities like, uh, state associations and other companies. I think that's been, been really fun to, to do and, and see that, um, grow as well. I think our. Uh, I'm just, I'm proud of the collaborations we have at MCM.

I don't think every coaching group or entity, um, has that, uh, for various reasons, and I'm, I'm proud that we do have that. Um, the Chiropractic Success Academy's been going strong still. Me and Bobby, maybe of FTCA. We started that in 2018, and that's still. Going strong. So that's exciting. And, uh, just, yeah, a lot of, a lot of cool things and looking forward to 2026 with a few [00:04:00] other new wrinkles and, uh, growth opportunities for us and for chiropractors to, to grow.

And one of those is, uh, London Masterclass, June 20th. Go to. Uh, Bitly, BIT LY slash MCM UK 26. I'm co-presenting with Dr. Chris Chippendale out of the uk and it'll be all on the patient experience. The first five people to do the early bird will. Also have dinner with Chris and I and we do have early bird pricing right now until the end of March.

So hop on that. We'd love to see you there. We're gonna really dive deep into making sure you have a, uh, improved patient experience. It's not just gonna be didactic lecture, you're gonna get some heads down work, build out a great patient experience. So check that out at bitly bly slash mc uk two six.

Alright, so. Let's dive into it. I'm gonna kinda read what I had, uh, [00:05:00] wrote about this, and that'll be the, the episode there and I'll probably inject some little caveats and such. Um, all right, so I recently listened to an app series on changing how you think by Dr. Seth Gillihan. He's a licensed psychologist and author of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, made Simple and also, uh, retrain Your Brain.

He was discussing the concept of cognitive distortions, often referring to them as thinking errors as systemic biases in the way we think that contributes to stress. Sorry, that contributes to stress, anxiety, and depression according to Gallahan. These are not just wrong thoughts, but specific patterns of irrational thinking that lead us to view reality inaccurately usually negatively.

He emphasizes that while everyone engages in these thought patterns, occasionally they become [00:06:00] problematic when they are frequent and intense. Now. I'm gonna read some of the distortions he discussed. Now there's more, right? That's where it comes from. These books that he has, cognitive, uh, behavioral therapy, made simple and retrain your brain.

So don't have all of 'em, but, but definitely worth the read in those books. All right. First one he talks about is all or nothing thinking, viewing situations in black and white categories. If a situation falls short of perfect, it is seen as a total failure. That's, uh, not a good one. Next one is catastrophizing.

Obviously we deal with this with our patients, but we, um, well chiropractors deal with this with their business, right? Uh, predicting the worst possible outcome will happen, even if it is unlikely. Next one he talks about is overgeneralization seeing a single negative event as a never ending pattern of defeat.

Next emotional reasoning, [00:07:00] assuming that your negative emotions reflect the way things really are, if I feel it, therefore it must be true. I think our society has a massive problem with this. Honestly, I think this is what we're seeing a lot in our society. They, they think their emotions are a reality and then take it from there.

We do that in business as well. Entitlement expecting that things must go your way or that you deserve a specific outcome without having to work for it. As I read through those, I want you to kind of put the framing of a, as a chiropractor, you know, this obviously can pertain to your personal life, but I want you to put the framing of it as a chiropractor or a business owner, right?

So you think about that all or nothing thinking catastrophizing, overgeneralization, emotional reasoning, entitlement, entitlement's a big one, right? Expecting that things must go your way or that you deserve a specific outcome without having to work for it. Um, there were [00:08:00] quite a few more, but you, you get the point there.

And the goal of the series was to improve your thought process for everyday life. And yet, and he provides a framework, uh, for that, uh, Gillihan suggests a three step process for dealing with these distortions, often referred to as the. Think Act B approach. So one is catch it. Notice when your mood creates a downward spiral and identify the specific thought.

Two is, check it. Examine the evidence. Ask is this thought 100% true? Or what is a more accurate way of viewing this? Next is change it. Replace the distorted thought with a more balanced, realistic thought. Not necessarily positive thinking, but accurate thinking. You know, um, this series kind of made me think about how cognitive distortions often play a role in [00:09:00] our, in our growth management and leadership of our private practices.

And what's been cool too. You know, I've been practicing for 20 years and, and I've suffered from this over the years, whether it's in practice. I've had one practices, I've had two practices. I've sold a practice, I've bought real estate. I've been associate, like, I've kind of run the gamut and, and, uh, I'm very pleased with where I'm at now in my mid forties, but it's not always easy and you kind of suffer from these things for sure.

And it what's been fascinating over the last, um. You know, eight or nine years of getting to work with chiropractors and definitely over the last four years, really, whether it's our co 'cause our coaching group has expanded and I've just coached hundreds of chiropractors now. Um, or they've been in our, in our, working with some of our other coaches and talking to our, our coaches like Kurt Ashley now, um, all you.

Brendan Donahue. Want to a little interject there. He, we, we've added a new [00:10:00] associate chiropractor to our practice. He is, uh, one of our MCM coaches shouldn't say to our practice, to our business. He's one of our MCM coaches now, and he has some clients and that's exciting. So we are growing, we're adding coaches and uh, we add them within.

He's someone that I've worked with directly now for probably eight years, and he is just applied the. The work and his practice has exponentially grown and so now he is one of our, our coaches. But yeah, going back to like just talking to our coaches, talking to, you know, being in the mastermind group where these are a lot of high level chiropractors that are all going through things.

It's been, I would say the thing that. Has been really help. There's a lot of things that have been helpful with what MCM has done for chiropractors, but we can kind of be that, catch it, check it, change it for the chiropractor. 'cause you do get left on an island. And that's just the nature of it often. And it, and it's hard for your friends and family to understand it and talk to them about it.

Um, and maybe help with [00:11:00] good thoughts, right? So. You know, catch it. Notice when your mood creates a downward spiral and identify this specific thought. Uh, a lot of our clients will reach out to me or our coaches and say, Hey, I'm going through this. What's, what's the deal with my practice? Or this week or that month, or whatever.

And so then we're able to help them with that thought and kind of check it. And let's examine the evidence, right? So I'll, so the coaches will say, it was like, is this a hundred percent true? What's a more accurate way of viewing this? And kind of work through that and then help that client with the third part of this, which is change it, right?

Replace the distorted thought with a more balanced, realistic thought. It's not necessarily positive thinking, but it's accurate thinking, right? And giving them a strategy to overcome that. And so that's one thing. That I've been proud of with MCM is to help chiropractors think, act to B. Right? Catch it, check it, change it.

So my question to you is, are cognitive distortions negatively impacting your practice growth and or [00:12:00] career satisfaction? You know, um, potentially, or maybe more than likely, right? And I'll be the, you know, first admit I have and, and do suffer from these cognitive distortions in my own business. And then that's why I never leave myself on an island, right?

I've got my mastermind group, I've got colleagues that I rely on. I've got strategic coach. I've, I just always have coaching and people around me because I know that I'm limited in what I can do myself, right? And so, um. Aside from strategies such as think It, you know, think, act, be one key way to help manage these cognitive distortions in your business decision making is to have a coach and or a group of like-minded chiropractors to serve kind of as your board of advisors.

You need a board of advisors. And my challenge is you, is to find that board of advisors and, um, I think MCM has done a great job. I know M MCMs done a great job. [00:13:00] Of being that Board of advisors and really helping develop strategic plans for chiropractors. So check us out. Go to modern chiropractic mastery.com, modern chiropractic mastery.com, and we'd love to help you out.

Have a great week in practice and talk to you soon.

EPISODE 462: The Non-Surgical Joint Replacement with Ben Fergus DC

Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm excited to bring Dr. Benjamin Fergus onto our podcast. This will be. The second time, but we're gonna dive into a little bit of a different topic and excited to dive into, um, his, uh, development and concept around the non-surgical joint replacement and how it pertains to knee, shoulder, hip, and what he's doing to help patients out and help chiropractors help patients out, uh, to avoid the, the actual surgical.

Uh, hip, knee, joint, uh, shoulder replacement and what patients are doing in his clinic, and then what he's doing to help chiropractors implement this system that he's developed with that clinically. And, uh, we dive into it. We dive into the, uh, the details of it, how it started. Um, I. Commend him on the naming of it.

I love it. Um, and so we, [00:01:00] uh, every so often love to have, uh, really good clinicians on here to dive into the clinical side. And then, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll provide a little bit of my, uh, business and, and marketing, uh, touch to it as well. So, without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Ben Fergus.

Alright, welcome to the show Ben. I appreciate having you on. This is the, the first time, it's been a little while since you've been on, so update our audience on what you've had going on over this period of time.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. Thanks for having me on again, Kevin. I, I know I haven't been on in a while, but since we see each other four times a year, it feels like it hasn't been much time.

Uh, yeah. Think things are good. Uh, uh, a reminder for the listeners, I, I practice just outside of Chicago, Illinois in. Evanston and aside from my private practice, I, I hop around and teach and participate in seminars. So I've been doing a lot of teaching. Recently, I teach for some different organizations like, uh, Texas [00:02:00] Chiropractic Association.

I've been doing a series with them the past few years, both their, their big state conventions and then some little regional ones as well. I'm teaching for the Academy of Shockwave of Excellence and, uh, my time in between where I, where I'm not teaching with my own material grip approach, I'm really focused on just building my practice in terms of the people I work with and the culture that we're establishing and just leaning into that and, and, uh, I've seen a lot of benefit from that.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, it's been cool over the years. You were an original cohort in 2022 of the Mastermind, but you know, we've known each other some years before that.

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: And I think the thing that stands out, uh, to me for about you and, and a lot of our mastermind members is that, you know, you're, you're very clinically oriented, but you also are willing to, uh, dive into the business side of things and make sure that you marry.

Great clinical outcomes and, [00:03:00] and clinical delivering, uh, whether it's you or, or your, your team members, but also, you know, understanding that this is a business and we gotta make a business out of it. Mm-hmm. We, the, the better the business is doing, everybody is, is gonna benefit from that. So that's something that's been cool to see over the, the handful of years we've worked together through the mastermind.

Ben Fergus: Yeah, I, I appreciate that. I, I, I agree with you. I, I am like 110% clinically minded. Um, but the, the business helps you with that, and that, that was a big realization for me is the healthier the business side, the better equipped I can be to do what I really want to do on the in depth, uh, nerdy clinical stuff.

Kevin Christie: Exactly. Um, and it's been, uh, neat to see a lot of members in our mastermind, uh, like that. And then you obviously have the kind of the dual thing going on, which I've always admire of chiropractors, where you're not only in the trenches in your own practice, but you are teaching other chiropractors. How are you managing that dichotomy?[00:04:00]

Ben Fergus: You know, at one point I was, I was teaching this, or hosting this class, the DNS class in, uh, Durham, North Carolina. And our instructor was Brett Winchester. And the whole thing almost got canceled by this crazy snowstorm. Uh, my flights got canceled, drove through the night from Chicago. His got rerouted.

And, but it was really cool. We got, we got to chat there and I asked him a question, kind of similar to that. 'cause I, you know, he, he teaches probably a whole lot more than I do. Mm-hmm. And I, I asked him about that, that question about how you seek balance between professional life, personal life. Mm-hmm.

And he kind of, uh, joked that there really is no balance. Balance is kind of an illusion. And I took that to heart. I, not in a, like, I'm in a work all the time type of way, but. The real, uh, I think way to find that balance and equilibrium is to just really enjoy what you're doing in the moment. No matter what that is, [00:05:00] whether it's work or playing cards with your kid or whatever it may be.

It's like fully invest in the moment that you're in and that it, that, that kind of helps me. Uh, reframe the flights back home at 2:00 AM from teaching in Iowa when I'm working the next morning.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, it's, uh, I reference it off often, but Cal Newport, he's in the midst of writing a book called The Deep Life.

He wrote the book Deep Work. He, he, you can Google the blog he wrote on Deep Life, which I, I really liked. It was kind of four parts and, but one of 'em was craft, right? Mm-hmm. And, and he, he dives into those that really. Enjoy their craft and, and the process of honing that craft. You get a lot out of that.

And I think

absolutely.

Kevin Christie: I think that's, uh, sometimes onset.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. I, I think, I think craft is a huge part of it, and mission is another one, and this is definitely see this in, in my group is mm-hmm. If you don't have like a really clear [00:06:00] mission of what you're trying to do at work, then it's just work. And if you have a mission, but not everybody is on board and that mission doesn't resonate with them.

Then again, it's just a job and I don't really want to be in a position where I'm just giving a job. I, I wanna like to have a really fired up team of people that's working on a mission, and then you can lean into like the craft of it, the excellence of it, moving things forward together, and, and that really does motivate me every day too.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, it's, it's great. And, um, you know, you've been doing a lot and, and I forget how I first heard of it, but it just, uh, it really stood out to me and I, I just love when we marry great clinical and, and messaging. Uh, it might've been. It might've been Jeff Fluid, I think you hosted at his office at one point.

Mm-hmm. Maybe. Right. But was the idea of the, the non-surgical joint replacement and, and that titling of it and then applying it [00:07:00] to the hip, the knee, the shoulder, and what that is, uh, it really stood out to me. It was like, oh, wow. And then I talked to. A handful of people that have taken this course with you and, and the substances there, like the, the material that they're learning and the things they're able to apply to their practices is there.

And so it's got the, the great clinical underbelly to it. And then I, I just think it's a great title too, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm. How did you, how did you come up with this? Obviously the start with the, the concept of what you're teaching of it, and then we will work to the title of it.

Ben Fergus: Yeah, there, there's a whole lot of power in a good name.

And yeah,

Kevin Christie: there is.

Ben Fergus: Sometimes you try, try, try to get the right name for something and it doesn't work and other times it's right there. Um,

Kevin Christie: yeah.

Ben Fergus: Kind of funny story on the name. I, I had the technique, I had the approach that we're doing. And I, I wasn't thinking about teaching it to anybody else. I wasn't thinking of naming it, but I, we posted something on the social media of, you know, a [00:08:00] technique we're doing and I was just trying to grab some attention and I kind of ingest, called it the non-surgical hip replacement.

Yeah, and it just, it blew up. It resonated with a lot of people. I had like local ER docs pop in to see what it was about. I'm like, oh, there real, there's some power in that name. So we went through the process of trademarking it and kind of leaning into it and ended up naming the seminar. Um, that, but that was like a random social media caption that really took off.

But behind that is, is a really robust clinical system that's evidence-based. It's new material that supports some existing, uh, knowledge and material that we had from the research. There's a lot of new development novel approaches that are put in here to help make the attendee. The best choice for a patient to conservatively treat degeneration in the knee, the hip, or the shoulder.

And we apply the concepts to other joints, but the systems we teach are really [00:09:00] focused on hip, knee, and shoulder. And if you look at patient volume, that's pro, probably similar to an ortho office, 70% of the people seeking us are gonna be those knee cases. Um, probably our most outstanding results, like mind blowing results are with the hip.

Mm-hmm. And the shoulder is really fantastic as well, but everybody who treats frozen shoulder and rotator cuffs and shoulder degeneration knows how sensitive that joint can be in comparison to some of our bigger joints. Like the, like the hip and the knee. Um,

Kevin Christie: yeah. Abs Go ahead.

Ben Fergus: Yeah, go ahead.

Kevin Christie: No, I said it make, it makes sense to me.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. Yeah. I, when we, when we try to market, I really want to get a hundred hips walking into my office where we can prevent their need for hip replacement. And we end up getting about a hundred knees and maybe one or two, two hips trickling in. But, uh, the background of it is, uh, my clinic and my mission, like we talked about [00:10:00] before, our, our clinic mission is to resolve chronic pain in Chicago.

And then the world, and I've always been in this realm of chronic pain. It then, uh, kind of transitioned into athletic care. I, when I realized that pro athletes, collegiate athletes are often, you know, fighting through some chronic conditions. And I kind of married those together and worked that into to grip approach, which we teach.

Uh, but as, as the years went on, as I really specialized in these chronic complex cases. Early on, a lot of the sources of the chronic pain had to do with nerves. Mm-hmm. Um, that were inflamed, impinged, irritated, or injured. Uh, then we were looking at muscle and connective tissue, and as we kept going, we had more and more patients where a degenerative joint was really at the epicenter of why their health deteriorated, why they were in a chronic state of [00:11:00] breakdown, and I didn't even really think about.

Trying to have an answer for that. I did as I was trained and as you were trained, you get somebody in with grade four knee degeneration, what do you do? You get 'em connected to the best ortho surgeon, you know? Right. And you'd say like, I'll try to make you feel better until then. And I think that was the mode of operation for me until about six years ago, is just refer out, refer out, refer out, and eventually.

I had a patient who I'd helped her through a whole lot of other things leading up to this, and she came in with probably grade three needy degeneration. And I looked at it and I pulled up my reference for the best knee surgeons in the area and I was getting ready to refer her out, and she asked me if I would at least try because she didn't want surgery.

She had had some interaction to anesthesia in the past. It just, she would rather [00:12:00] not play tennis ever again than have to go through surgery. And she viewed me as maybe an option that could help her. And so even though that's not really in clinical standards, how I was operating at that day, I decided, okay, if I look at the, this degenerative knee.

And I wanted to put together the absolute best approach to slow halt or reverse needy degeneration. What would that look like? What, what does research have for us that we already know is effective? Um, what are some new things that we can build onto that research and how do we package it together to make an impact?

And that kind of sparked this journey. I dug deep into the research. I learned new techniques from uh, pm and r Docs and orthopedists. I took some of my training in Europe, applied it to this system. I looked for technology. I [00:13:00] dove deep into nutrition and really. Folded all of that into a plan that could be streamlined, consistent, effective, and we found that it was, was really effective.

It worked really well. We got astonishing results with this first patient. Um, still to this day, I think we saw her six years ago. She's back to playing tennis surgeries completely off the board. Um, the grade three needy degeneration, which she had confirmed on imaging. Is functioning really well. She can extend her knee, bend her knee, lift weights.

All of the things that we would hope for in an outcome for surgery are there in a completely conservative approach. Yeah, so that's, that's kind of the background that led into it is a patient asked me and we, we dug into it and found a way.

Kevin Christie: Sometimes those are the best ideas from, they come from the patients, right?

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Um, now let's take that particular patient, you know? Yeah. What is a treatment plan? Obviously it's all different, but what [00:14:00] are we looking at as far as, uh, potential frequency and duration? Sure. Uh, did we, did you guys, uh, package up certain things like, okay, you're gonna do some rehab for the hip?

Mm-hmm. Or, you know, like, give us a little bit of insight of what that looked like. Just so you know, it's, it's obviously, it's a, it's a framework. Every treatment plan is gonna look different, but just want to get people to have a context. Yeah.

Ben Fergus: It is a framework.

Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Ben Fergus: It is actually a, a pretty highly structured framework.

Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Ben Fergus: And, uh, just to preface that, if um, if you had a, an orthopedic problem, like you thought maybe you needed a hip replacement, would you go to your family practice MD and ask them if they would do a hip replacement for you?

Kevin Christie: No,

Ben Fergus: probably not, right? They, they, they don't have that exact, they're an md but they don't have that exact skillset.

But let's say we go to that same family practice [00:15:00] MD and you give them, uh, some anesthesia, a surgical saw. Uh, a new hip joint and some nurses to help, would you then ask that doctor to do your surgery? Is that, is that enough supplies for them? No. No. Right. It's, it's, they, they're not specialized in the right way to do that procedure.

Yeah. And even if you load them up with all the same tools, all the same equipment, that's still not the right person to put all of that together For your hip replacement, you want to go to somebody who actually has not only a framework, but a consistent result of we have to do A, B, C, D, 1, 2, 3, 4, and then we're gonna get the the right result.

And so what I've found in doing all of this is there's really good chiropractors, just like there's really good. Family medicine doctors who you could go and ask, Hey, will you work on my hip? And then you could [00:16:00] give them a bunch of the same equipment that we use and say, okay, will you work on my knee? Um, but really getting the framework and the whole system down consistently and getting the training to do that.

What's gonna elevate them to actually get the results? 'cause these are not easy cases. Yeah. With training and systemization, we can make them much easier, much more effective. But as I get into the system, I don't want people to necessarily just go dabble, throw in darts at it, and put and put the name non-surgical joint replacement behind it.

That's why we trademarked it so we can kind of control what that looks like in the clinic setting. But yeah. All of that aside, what the system looks like is about an eight week program. Mm-hmm. It's eight weeks in the office. They have to continue to do a few things on their own. Afterwards, in those eight weeks, they're gonna work with me two times per week.

Me or my, my team here. On each session that they come in, we're gonna [00:17:00] be addressing their joint health, not only in the degenerative joint, like the knee, but we're also gonna look at the chain. We're gonna look at the SI joint and spine be, be good chiropractors in that regard. Look at the foot.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: We're going to be using some existing and some novel capsule mobilizations to put some load and change into different aspects of the capsule around the joints. We're going to be treating that. Entire area and some specific areas with radial and focused shockwave therapy. Mm-hmm. And if you have access to it, we have a protocol that brings in, uh, extra corporeal, magneto transduction, EMTT, which is like a superpowered pimp machine, which can really, uh, synergistically amplify what you do.

Mm-hmm. And then they've got really crisp grip style rehab that can be run. By the doctor or by the staff of the doctor to build up, um, what they're [00:18:00] doing movement wise. Mm-hmm. They have to repeat some of the movements at home and we like to pair it with BFR. If they're a little, uh, too small on muscle mass, adding some muscle mass and strength will be really helpful.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: And we try to get them on a specific dietary protocol as well. We, we need, if we think about the language that we have to be able to communicate with cells for change. We essentially have load. And repetition over time, but all of that is washed in the body's biochemicals. Yeah, so those are the three things that we can affect.

We can affect how much load goes into the cell, how often it's rep repeated over time, and what kind of biochemicals it's washed in. So the, the nutritional component is to wash all of those cells, supply all of those cells in better biochemicals so that we're essentially starting kick, starting a healing process.

That will go on for three months to a few years for the patient.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I love [00:19:00] that. And it, one thing, again, we, we try to hang our hat here at MCM is, you know, marketing can be great, but I think we all hate when marketing is lipstick on a pig. And, you know, we, we, we, we do see it often where good.

Messaging really doesn't match up with what they're getting in the office. And, and too many times people do slap good, uh, ideas or, or, or names on things. But then you go there and it's just like, yeah, you're getting your hip distracted and you're getting, uh, you know, a, a couple basic exercises and, and they're gonna call that.

Uh, maybe a hip replacement, non-surgical, you know, so it's, mm-hmm. We don't want that. And it's really, you gotta have the substance in, in the, in the meat of it. And then no matter what, what, what, what we're talking about today, or just any in general, bring the clinical goods, however that looks like for you.

You know, like I've got. Some members or people I know that are just, they just do a RT, that's literally all they do. But they stay in their [00:20:00] lane and

Ben Fergus: Yeah.

Kevin Christie: And that's what they do. And if they need something else, they've got a good chiro or PT to do the other thing and, and, and, and so their substances, the a RT only, or you know, the adjustment, whatever it may be.

Um, so you have to bring the, the clinical chops of what you do and, and feel great about, and then be able to package it where patients can understand it. And I think that's what's. Awesome. Here is, is obviously you got all the backing of what you've done over the years with the clinical side, and then you've packaged it well named it.

Well, uh, that's one thing I learned at Strategic Coach is, is unique naming can really go a long way. 'cause people can, they can picture it, it resonates with them.

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm. And,

Kevin Christie: and they say yes. Like I, I want, I want my knee to be. Functioning well and not, um, hindering me from what I want to do, but I don't really want to go do the knee replacement.

It's, and as some people are 47 years old and their knee is, is shot, they definitely don't want the knee replacement at 47. Uh, mostly, absolutely. [00:21:00] So it's not just the 70-year-old that we're, we're talking about here. So can you give us a little bit of a, what kind of, you mentioned earlier athletes and chronic pain.

What are the range of people you're seeing getting results, uh, from this, from this system?

Ben Fergus: Yeah, that's, that's a good perspective. Um, I think I'll try to answer that in two ways. Part of my expected prognosis with my limited, honestly my limited sample size. This would be different if I had 20 certified practitioners that have 20 years of data.

It's, we've got a handful of people that have been doing this for five to six years now, so that's my data pool. Um, we grade the level of degeneration in the joint, grades one through four, four being the ones that are true bone on bone. You can hear the stones rattling together when you move the joint.

That's true. You know, grade four. So we've run this on grade one through grade four [00:22:00] and in different joints. It's, it's slightly different, but. At across all ages, our success rates with grade one degeneration are greater than 94% success rates in grade two, depending on the joint, it ranges between 80 and 87%.

Success rates. In grade three we're in the 70 to 80% success rate marks. Grade four, I, I can't really name a percentage on that. It is much more hit or miss. Um, we've had patients where they've made 60% improvement on their oats and functional assessments, and greater than that in, um, their subjective reporting that I would look at that knee and still say, yeah, you know.

That one might still be a surgical case. Mm-hmm. Um, we've had others where they got really good results, but they wanted to run a half marathon [00:23:00] and they didn't think they could still run that half marathon. So they made a choice to go on. But I, I would say a grade four. I, I really make my patients ask me to approach it with that one still, um, because the results aren't as consistent as grades one through three.

But to color that a little bit, I think most of the really severe joint degeneration that's seen in a chiropractor's office are usually grade three or grade two. That's, it's rare that a grade four gets to you. Honestly, in this stage, um, most of those are already on a surgical plan. Um, so if we're talking about grade three, where I'm seeing across all joints in grade three, a 70 to 80% improvement, and we compare that to.

What most hospitals set a mark at for successful outcomes on an intervention, which is between 30 and 35% for most hospitals would be considered a successful intervention. At that point, we're [00:24:00] doubling what would be considered a successful outcome and a completely non-invasive approach for those grade three.

So it really opens up a lot of cases in terms of age range. Probably the youngest person we've taken this approach with was a 21-year-old football linebacker with a rather significant labral tear. No osteoarthritis but labral tear in their hip. And the oldest patient that I've taken through this approach successfully is an 81-year-old that had, um, complex rotator cuff tear, um, acromial osteoarthritis, and early stages of adhesive capsulitis.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Nice. Nice. Yeah, it's, that's one thing I think I wanted to, you know, get some clarity. I, I kind of knew the answer, but, uh, for the audience, just, yeah. It's, it's not just the 70-year-old, [00:25:00] right? Mm-hmm. It's, there's a lot of people wanting highly functional joints. Oh, for sure. For their age.

Ben Fergus: It's a lot of people that are picking up, running in their forties or, you know, tenants or pickleball in their thirties and their body's not doing as well as they envisioned it doing.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, just recently had an ex professional baseball player. He is my age now. And, uh, yeah, his right hip is, is, is toast. Um, but he's managing as much as he can and so,

Ben Fergus: mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Uh, a lot of people out there that are, are still wanting, they're still healthy, young and wanting to function at, at a high level, so.

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Um, you know, I think one of the things too with this is that if one were to go through. You're training with this, you're, you're gonna gain, you're gonna gain a level of clinical competence, which is gonna lead to clinical confidence. And then you ultimately would have the conviction to be able to, um, you know, offer this in, in your clinic.

Mm-hmm. And, and promote it when you are, uh, [00:26:00] trained in this and be able to communicate with that patient with a certain level of, um, I wanna say, um. It's not a guarantee. And I think that's the thing I want is like, it's, it's conviction around, it's like, yeah, I have a, I, I feel good that we can help you.

And obviously based on the grading of the, the degeneration, you're gonna be honest with that patient. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then you're gonna have patients that are going to, uh, get a lot of benefit from something like this. And, uh, you're gonna really change some lives.

Ben Fergus: Absolutely.

Kevin Christie: Um, tell us a little bit about what it looks like, the different types of, um, training opportunities for something like this.

Uh, anything coming down the pipeline in person. I know there's virtual. What, what does this look like to, to start to get some clinical confidence around this and be able to implement in your practice?

Ben Fergus: Yeah, I'd love to share that. And actually, even more than that, I'd love some feedback from your listeners.

I, I've been involved [00:27:00] in chiropractic continuing education since 2011. That's when I hosted my first course, uh, overall, and I think that whole. Business and opportunity of furthering your skillset has changed dramatically in the past five years. Mm-hmm. Uh, definitely a much bigger push towards online training, remote training.

Obviously I'm doing a lot of in-person business training with you, which, which I, I love the in-person setting. Um, but I think the whole thing is different now that we can get the majority of our CEUs from the. Comfort of our home or our vacation spots. Just a different experience. So I'd, I'd love to hear from your listeners how they are getting their CEU and their skill advancement, uh, currently.

And I'll let you know what we offer.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: My emphasis is still being in the room with somebody and helping them gain their hands on. Excellent [00:28:00] skillset. So we have some upcoming courses in, uh, may in St. Louis. We're doing a combo course of non-surgical joint replacement and one of our classic grip courses with another mastermind member, uh, Tony Kataki at his facility, uh, in Chesterfield.

We are running a few similar combo courses at my clinic here in. Chicago, Evanston and those combo courses, day one is one of the joints of the non-surgical joint replacement. Mm-hmm. So we'll pair like a knee non-surgical knee replacement with our grip lower extremity course on the following two days.

And that gives you a really in-depth learning over a three day weekend.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: One full plug and play system for the non-surgical joint replacement. And then pair it with the in-depth grip approach that you can train yourself or your staff in. So those are some in-person ones coming up. And then we've [00:29:00] built out a, a pretty incredible online platform as well, which is learning at your own pace.

That's at grip approach.com, and we have a three day. Nonsurgical Joint replacement summit. That's all virtual. Mm-hmm. We filmed it over three days in my clinic, high definition video with a professional videographer. We clipped that into, uh, crisp long segments that range from eight to 12 minutes, and then we further clipped that down into a one minute quick reference guide.

So as you go through that course, you receive the material the way you would in person, but then afterwards you can go back and search it and really quickly pull up an isolated technique to refresh your mind or train your staff. And that online virtual summit is also, uh, available for pace credits if you're in a pace state.

Kevin Christie: Hmm. Nice. That's awesome, man. I love it. Yeah. [00:30:00] And uh, yeah, I took a look at it. The virtual part looks amazing. Um, very professionally done. I, I must commend you. I've done a lot of online courses and stuff. It's not easy.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a unique challenge for the chiropractor skillset.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely.

But, uh, yeah, this is great and we'll put the information in the show notes as well, uh, on how to link to that and, and get going from it. But it could be a great opportunity in 2026 to advance clinical, uh, skillset and then be able to package it, you know, and, and be able to mm-hmm. Understand how to go out there and, and really help with these particular, uh, conditions.

So, great work.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. Thank you. I, I think on that point, and considering this is a, a marketing and, and business podcast. If you do this and, and do it well, it, it's a really big benefit to the business side of your practice. Um, and I've, I know I've spoken on that in a closed room setting with the Mastermind, but [00:31:00] this is really the way I envision chiropractors moving is into a more specialized skillset where they're not being viewed as.

Let's see if an adjustment would work for this.

Kevin Christie: Yeah,

Ben Fergus: they're being viewed as the real. Conservative expert in helping somebody overcome joint degeneration, and by getting the training and eventually promoting it, you really quickly become that expert in your community. And. Because we're doing an advanced technique that requires some extra training and extra equipment, it's, we charge a good amount for it as well, a healthy amount.

That's really good for the practice, but it's not absurd either. It's something that patients can make a decision to do and and hopefully say. Hey, uh, maybe I'm gonna skip the trip to Cancun this year and get my hip feeling good so I can go next year. And I, I've had a patient say those exact words to me like, this isn't a travel year, this is a [00:32:00] health year, and ultimately you're setting your patients up for.

An incredibly healthy lifestyle after they work with you on this joint because everything that they're learning to do are like the foundations of health that we all know about, and this gives you the opportunity to make it real for your patient and for them to buy in and to do the things that are gonna make their life better afterwards.

Kevin Christie: Yeah. I love it. I love it, man. That was great. And um, we'll put that in the show notes. I look forward to seeing you in a couple days in Park City for our mastermind. I know this

Ben Fergus: absolutely

Kevin Christie: episode will come out after that, but looking forward to talking, uh, business with you and, uh, having some, some brown drinks.

Ben Fergus: Absolutely.

Kevin Christie: All right, Ben, have a good one.

Ben Fergus: You too. Thank you.

EPISODE 463: Entrepreneurial Alignment and Optimal Leadership with Shannon Waller

Speaker: [00:00:00] Hey chiropractors. Welcome to Modern Chiropractic Mastery with your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing, business and professional growth with some of the leading experts in the industry.

Hey doc. Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host. Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm excited to bring someone that I've got to learn from and know for a while, and that is Shannon Waller of Strategic Coach. As many of you know, I've been a member of Strategic Coach for quite a long time, and it really has become the, uh.

Uh, the operating system for me as an entrepreneur, and, and Shannon was kind enough to do a webinar for our mastermind group in 2025 on entrepreneurial alignment and optimal leadership. So we did a bunch of, we did a few webinars last year for our mastermind group around leadership, and Shannon was kind enough to do that, and so I wanted to bring her on the podcast to share.

Some of what [00:01:00] she taught us in the webinar and really dive into that. And it really gets you to think about what leadership is. 'cause I think there's a lot of misconceptions and she does a great job, uh, in this episode. Uh, before we do dive into that interview, I want to let you know that, uh, we've made mention before, but between MPI, motion Palpation Institute, FTCA, forward Thinking Chiropractic Alliance and MCM, uh, we are going to be starting a yearly.

Live event, a conference. The first one's gonna be January 30th, 31st of 2027. So you got a year and it's gonna be in Atlanta. We're making this easy to get to and we're making it, uh, you know, like direct flights. Mostly decent weather in January in Atlanta. I'm take a short tram to the conference center at the Marriott we're gonna be at, and it's, we're gonna thread the needle of it being a larger conference, but not a just potpourri of random speakers with no consistency and congruency.

[00:02:00] There. We're gonna have six great. Presentations actionable. There's gonna be some heads down work and it's gonna be around, um, you know, business growth. We're gonna have Mark King talking about leadership. We're gonna have Bobby Mabe talking about ethical sales. I'm gonna be talking about marketing. We've got Holly Tucker speaking on financials.

We've got Brett Winchester talking about the IT factor in clinic, and we will round it out with Ashley Jordan talking about community outreach and also the patient experience and we're gonna. You know, we're gonna bring good information and you're gonna walk away with a guided plan, and you're gonna also connect with other like-minded chiropractors looking to grow their business.

And so we're, we're actually launching the early bird right now, but this is a special early bird. It's for founder members. It's limited to 45 members, and there's a lot of perks in that, and I want you to check that out. You can go to Bitly b.ly/. Thrive 2027. And you can also just go [00:03:00] to our Facebook group, modern Chiropractic Mastery and you'll see it all there.

But by, you know, between now and March 1st is the deadline to sign up for this founder's member and the Early Bird special. And it's limited to 45 people and it will go, it will sell out. Uh, it includes also you get to pick, to have a cocktail reception with. Either M-P-I-M-C-M or FTCA and a bunch of other perks that you can check out on that, uh, website.

So I encourage you to sign up for that. Again, go to bitly bid.ly/thrive 2027. We're really excited about it. We're getting a lot of good excitement around it, and we hope you will become one of our founder members. So, without further ado, here is my interview with Shannon Waller.

All right. Excited to have Shannon Waller on our podcast today, and it's been, uh, exciting to get to, to know Shannon over some years. I've, uh, been with Strategic Coach since 2013. Uh, [00:04:00] you've been with Strategic Coach, uh, as a team member for quite a bit longer. You started in 1991 over those 34 years. Uh, what initially drew to the organization?

I'd love to hear that story and then how it's your role has evolved over the 34 years. Oh my goodness. I'll try and tell the quick story. Mm-hmm. So I was working for another organization, uh, it doesn't exist any longer actually. And our largest client was General Motors of Canada. And so I worked with them to be able to sell.

Dealer assessment programs and things like that. So I ran these $2,000 programs. Uh, I was really bad at the administration though, so I would take forever. And if you get to know how I'm put together, like my Colby profile, I have very little mental energy for those kind of administrative tasks. Much, much more fun talking to you.

I have lots of mental energy for that. Anyway, so I was doing that, but I was getting restless. So when I first, so we would actually, we had seminar rooms space in addition to the administrative offices.

So Dan and Babs would [00:05:00] rent seminar room space 'cause they only had tiny little. In on Queen cast. And so, um, so what would happen is they would rent our seminar room space and all of a sudden their clients were so different than the regular corporate training. They'd be like, do, do, do talking. They're like, oh, hi, I'm Bob.

Mm-hmm. I'm like, I thought they knew each other already. Turns out they're all entrepreneurs. Right. Very open, very gregarious, wanting to learn from one another. So I'm like, oh, that's different. So anyway, they approached a friend of mine to work with, work with them. Uh, he told me, I'm like, oh, I could do that.

Long story short, saw Dan present, salesperson called me. She asked me the magical two questions. She goes, did you enjoy the presentation? I said, yes, I loved it. And then she said, are you happy with what you're doing? And out of my mouth, pops, no, I'm bored. Five weeks later, I joined Strategic Coach working for her.

She asked me how much I needed to live on. I calculated that, but forgot taxes. And I live in Canada, so that was some very lean years. So I did sales for the first [00:06:00] three, almost four years. And then I started getting a little bit restless and went back to school and took a training and design program, and then came up with the idea for the team programs.

And, um, that is now my career, part of my career. Yeah. So now I do coaching, I do, I do sales from a presentation, a large scale level, but I don't do one-on-one sales anymore, and I build my own sales team. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, I, I got paid last, I had my own little team, you know, it was, I got paid, the commissions, paid them, I took what was left over.

So I have that entrepreneurial experience as well. Um, but that I'm excellent, but not unique at, at sales. I could make it very healthy, six figure income, but not, I was frustrated, so that's why I went back to school. Yeah. Yeah. So my current coaching career is a result of a school project. Love it. And we are gonna tease out the difference between.

Excellent and unique, uh, for our audience that might have heard you say that and, and why that's important and how excellent can be a great thing, but it could also be a hindrance as well. Yeah. So we, we will dive into that for sure. [00:07:00] Uh, you were, you were kind enough to do a webinar for our mastermind group back in November.

Of 2025 and it was very well received. And we, you know, we had a, within our mastermind we do a set of a few webinars, usually around a topic. And in 2025 it was around leadership. And I really wanted to have you come and talk about that. And you, you dove into the entrepreneurial alignment, which, uh, was really helpful for us because I think.

You know, there's so much stuff out there on leadership, and I think a lot of, uh, everybody gets kind of, um, just confused of what a good leader is. I think we have this mental picture of this charismatic leader that is, you know, uh, just oozing with, uh, charisma. Right? And, and it, and that's great, right?

Sometimes they are not actually good leaders, they just have the charisma to overcome it. Uh, but there's a lot of different shapes of what a. What a leader is. And you did a, I thought a great job of taking a group of, I think there was probably 30 plus chiropractors on that webinar, and everybody [00:08:00] runs practices a little bit different and, and how to get in line with what your entrepreneurial style is.

So I really enjoyed that and I wanted to tease out some things, uh, from that for, for our audience. And so the, one of the things that I loved, and it's one of my favorite things that I've ever gotten from Strategic Coach, which is a lot, but as a doctor. You had framed a, a question and I'll just kinda read it and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

You framed a question for the group. Are you a chiropractor or an entrepreneur with a specialty in chiropractic care? What's the mindset shift there that is so transformative for professionals that are, are typically doctors. It is interesting 'cause Stan Sullivan, co-founder of Strategic Coach hit on this because we attract people and in our, you know, we're a coaching company, it's what we do.

We coach entrepreneurs on how to break through their current level of, of complexity, ceiling of complexity, and go to much greater heights. That's really what we're. There a reason, reason for being, [00:09:00] but we realized that we were, when, when we tried to market to, or work with people who, who were just in their professional mindset, which by the way, it's not a bad thing.

I'm really glad that they, I'm really glad that you're here. Mm-hmm. I see my chiropractor all the time, so I'm a, I'm a big fan, but then you're kind of stuck in that industry mindset. Mm-hmm. And so there's, when you, then you just really wanna get very, very good at your craft. It doesn't say much about running the business of chiropractic.

Right? And so when you can actually look at yourself as an entrepreneur with a specialty in, that's part of what we call a shift. You know, there's an entrepreneurial shift there, and then you're like, oh. And it, especially if you're one of those people that has lots of ideas, you're like, oh, we could approach things this way.

Maybe I could market that way. It's like, oh, if I did a collaboration over here, maybe we could, I could, we could feed together and take care of people even better, you know, if you're, if you're that type of person. You're an entrepreneur with a specialty in, and it allows you to think more thoughts just [00:10:00] ex basically experience much greater freedom in terms of your thinking, your actions, your behavior, the relationships, what you're pursuing.

It doesn't mean that you get. You know, it, it doesn't detract from you being a doctor. Mm-hmm. But it just doesn't mean that's not all you are. Uh, so that for me, it, it just creates a whole bunch more room for you to go play in a much bigger sandbox. Yeah. And I remember when I first heard that and Dan had said that, it just really resonated with me because I, I was kind of confused with what I was and, and almost, um.

Guilty about it. And I do think doctors may be in, in particular, uh, maybe struggle with it. It is like, you know, I should just be a doctor. I should just do that. And only, like you said, work on my craft. But there's this tug that's happening that they need to recognize that you can still be a great doctor.

Mm-hmm. But you gotta try to, uh, the way I put it, strategic Coach has helped me, um, really. Tease out the spirit of what my entrepreneurship [00:11:00] is and feel good about that versus maybe having any type of guilt. Oh, good. I, I actually had someone fill out an application form for coach one time. Mm-hmm. And we, we then asked, what do you wanna get outta the program?

And the answer was No guilt. No more guilt. No more guilt about taking time off, no more guilt about how they run their business. And I think it's really important. This is a little bit like birds and feathers. Mm-hmm. Not, you know, all business, all chiropractors are doctors by definition, but not all chiropractors are entrepreneurs.

Right. And so it's like, and guess what? The entrepreneurial doctors are the ones hiring. Doctor doctors. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like, because you, you want those people, if you wanna expand your practice, you want those people, 'cause they just wanna do what they wanna do. They're great, they're a specialist, hire them.

Mm-hmm. But that also frees you up to do the part of chiropractic that you, you still wanna do and all the other things. So it, it really is kind of binary. I, I do think people are [00:12:00] either just this or they're that expanded version and, and trying to make one into the other. It feels confining. It's like you're wearing a, a, a suit of clothes that's too tight.

Yeah. Yeah. And it is a struggle we have within our, that may be, I wouldn't say unique to our industry, but. You know, uh, a lot of chiropractors to earn a professional living that they really want, like, that's gonna get into the healthy, let's call it six figures. Mm-hmm. Takes a level of entrepreneurialship, uh, just being a, a treating chiropractor to be challenging.

And then we have this cycle of not enough entrepreneur chiropractors, um, fulfilling their. Vision of that and, and optimizing it to be able to hire good chiropractors. So we have a little bit of a glut of hiring in there. That's good jobs and you know, like it's this whole, whole thing. And so if we can get more of the entrepreneur chiropractors to be more entrepreneurial and successful, and then provide levels of jobs those entrepreneurs, or.

You know, the, the, the ones [00:13:00] that would just really wanna work on their craft, which there's nothing wrong with that, can also make a very good professional living as well. So that's a kind of grand vision I have for 'em. Well, and this is, but this is what you do, right? You provide that platform and the conversations and the outside expertise to help people see a bigger picture and to reach those higher levels and to break through that ceiling.

That's why you and I are simpatico is because we both want that for. People, you know? Yeah. People we really care about. We wanna help them grow. So, and there is always, we talk about this, one of our models is to go from rugged individualism to unique teamwork, right? Mm-hmm. And you're, you get to the peak, you know, you're rugged individual, you're successful, you can make this much money, whatever.

But then if you keep working longer and harder, you actually experience a lot of diminishing returns. And then there's this period of crisis, which looks really dramatic, but. But, and when you can start to hire other people, free yourself up, including other docs, you know, then you start to climb [00:14:00] that, you know what we call you communicability teamwork, where you're doing what you're best at.

Other people are doing that. But in the meantime, there's a hard part and what you were just talking about for me, related to that, because it can feel like, oh my gosh, the downside of one, you haven't really hit the upside of the other yet. Yeah. And there's no avoiding it. Just get through it as quickly as possible.

You know, that is, that is really the answer. Tough it out, it's worth it. And then on the other side you're like, woo, this is so much better. And then we get to do it again. So, yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that there is that chasm and, and I, I try to. Tell young chiropractors is that you have to have some delayed gratification and you gotta plug through that.

And then on the other side of it is, uh, where it gets fun. And, you know, you mentioned unique teamwork, and that was a big flip for me years ago with Strategic Coach was understanding with leadership. It, it really hones in on what Strategic Coach teaches is unique ability, but then also applied to unique teamwork.

So I want to go down that kind of path for a minute and I want to go back to one of the [00:15:00] early things you said that I, that I earmarked was the difference between unique ability and excellent activity. And then if you want, you can tease out the other two, uh, categories that people fall into as well. And this will set us a good context for the rest of the conversation.

Cool. Um, and I'll, I'll give you even a bigger context at the beginning. So to be a great leader, the model that I've just hit on in the last year or so is that you need to be self-aware. If you're clueless about yourself, really hard to be a decent, a good leader in my books, but then, and that hopefully will also help you become team aware, which is where other people's strengths, non-strengths, et cetera are.

But then you also have to be business aware. You can't be clueless about the metrics because everyone can just be in their happy place, but if you're not actually productive again, so it's that kind of trifecta. All of those things need to happen. So going back to self-aware, a very powerful. Probably the most powerful concept in Strategic Coach is uni ability.

Mm-hmm. Um, so if you think about, if you think about this [00:16:00] big circle and those, all of the activities you've ever done, okay? Mm-hmm. Um, and we're gonna work from the outside in. Okay? Now the center is the, is the sweet spot. So, mm-hmm. Bear everyone where, bear with me. So if you realize there are some things on the outside where you put in the time and effort and you do not get the result, that's what we call incompetent and truthfully.

Even though incompetent is a really bad word in most people's vocabularies, it's like, truth be told, you are not put on the planet to do those things. Fear, fear of frustration, stress, conflict. Yeah, and, and I'm a pretty handy person. Chainsaw is a summer hobby for me. But anything to do with mechanics? Not so much.

The one time I tried to change a tire on a trip with my husband, um, I put the, I, I didn't know what I was doing. Put the jack underneath the car, upside down. Which means I'm trying to push the earth away from the car. Yeah. And then Bri's pointed that. I'm like, okay. And I got back in the car. That was, that was the beginning and end [00:17:00] of my, my auto mechanic career.

Uh, which is fine. I'm totally cool with that. I'm fine to be incompetent at certain things. There's that, because I know there's. The opposite to that too. Then there's things and people get stuck here a lot. Mm-hmm. Uh, where they're competent, they're adequate, they're okay, but so are a lot of other people.

Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of competition and that means repetition, which is boredom, anxiety 'cause it's stressful. Uh, and yet people talk about, oh, competencies. I'm like, Ooh, I don't wanna get stuck there. Uh, so. Not, I don't wanna be incompetent in basic business things. You need reading, writing, arithmetic, and 21st century dance as retrieval of information.

Yes. Also good. Um, and then we start getting into the fun part, and this is a little bit going back to our conversation about, are you a chiropractor or an entrepreneur? Entrepreneur with specialty in, um, there's the excellent level and I find most professionals. Anyone with a designation behind their name mm-hmm.

Um, often get stuck here. We've actually called the excellent trap in one of our books, and that is where you have superior skill. You are [00:18:00] better at it than most people, which means you get great teamwork. People are like, oh, can you do this with me? And you're like, sure. Um, you get a great reputation. Often you're very well compensated for it, but at some level.

You're bored. And that is the challenge. And there's certain things that used to be interesting that aren't anymore. And so the excellent trap is the biggest danger. It's not incompetent or competent. Mm-hmm. Most of us are savvy enough to be able to figure or del figure that out or delegate it. But if we get stuck at this excellent trap party, 'cause that's your training.

I've invested this much money, this many years of school, this many practicum, like all the things, and you feel guilty going back to what we were talking about before. That you're not totally thrilled and happy with that. Yeah. But you're bored. So intellectually you're not stimulated anymore. It's not burnout, but it, it's not, it's brown out.

Just get warned. Yeah. Been there, done there, I got a few too many t-shirts. Mm-hmm. Now finally we're back in the center, center circle, and that is, this is where you have superior [00:19:00] skill and passion. You'd love it, your eyes light up, you lean in, you can see me. Right now, I'm literally leaning into the screen.

Um, and it gives you energy. At the end of the day, I, I find I'm physically tired 'cause I love coaching. Um, but in any, every other way, I am lit up. I'm like, I'm excited. I've got new ideas happening. I'm connected. I'm connecting all of the things I'm just like in my best place. Um, and, and this is the little trick, and this is why people don't often wanna acknowledge that it's actually their uni ability mm-hmm.

Is because, oh, I, you know, I, I coached a big workshop, 44 people, 10 x last week, and. At the end of every time I'm like, oh my gosh, I could have done this better. I could have done this better. So you can always see a room for never ending improvement, but people don't realize that the only reason why you know, you can get better is 'cause you care so deeply about it and you do have superior skill.

So the opportunity for, I would say chiropractors, um, for you listening is that look at where you are. [00:20:00] Excellent. And then see, okay, what, what's still fun and what's not. Mm-hmm. And tell the truth about that. And frankly, that is a very hard conversation to have with yourself. Mm-hmm. But when you can figure out what am I really passionate about?

And maybe, maybe it's a specific type of treatment, maybe it's a specific type of clientele or a specific issue you love solving, when you can lean into that. Your future gets bigger again. Yeah, it's huge. And you kind of mentioned a little bit is I've talked with some chiropractors about different things and it can be limiting what you do in the clinic.

Uh, you know, you might like to do the examination and one other thing and try to build your business around you doing those things and having other. Uh, docs or other team members do the other things. That's a really good way of wheeling down unique ability. Yeah. There's obviously ones that are purely entrepreneurial and they don't want to treat patients anymore and that's great too.

Uh, the other thing I've seen a lot of chiropractors do, and I think our audience, you know, listen to this for yourself, is, and it's been cool in our [00:21:00] mastermind group 'cause these are all, uh, more, you know, business savvy, good clinics, they own 'em and they're, they've grown pretty well. We have quite a few in there.

That are, um, teaching for other techniques, like whether it's a, you know, a technique protocol, but they travel and do that, or they speak at seminars on particular health information. They've found a niche that they become, like, like what I talked, uh, or which, which I learned from Strategic Coach a long time ago, was the book Industry Transformer.

They become an industry transformer in a particular niche, and so that really fills their bucket there. They still, you know, love coming back to their practice and treating patients, but they have that. Passion and and uniqueness in that. So I've seen it sliced many different ways for chiropractors. Well, and thank you for applying it so specifically because I think like, what's the nuance for you?

And it's very individual, it's very unique, right? Like sometimes you like the initial examination, I maybe you only wanna work with pregnant moms. Like what? I mean, there's [00:22:00] interesting, people have audiences, they have techniques, they have processes or systems they're passionate about. And when you can share that.

Again, it just to give you a, a little bit of a number thing this flash into my head was, is like a flash of inspiration. So I, I trust it. Or we were coaching this actually at one of our couples workshops and I had this insight that incompetent was like a, had a minus 10 x return. Mm-hmm. You put in a time and effort.

You do not, I get the result. Like me. Yeah. With a jack in the car. Right. And then competent is a one x. Not terrible, but you just, you don't, there's nothing extra there. It excellent is a two x. Mm-hmm. Right. When you have superior skill, you are faster and do it better than other people. But still, no. When you're, when you can hang out any unique ability, it's a 10 x return.

Yeah. It's a 10 x impact and that's, that's a multiplier and that's how you grow. So I don't know how to coach anyone to grow if they're committed to incompetent or competent. I'm like, I can't help you. I can help maximize you if you're, you know, wanna, if you're at excellent and you wanna go to unique.[00:23:00]

I'm your, I can, I'm your person. But if someone's committed or arguing for those other things, doesn't have have, have at it, good luck with that. Well, I wish them well, but I dunno how to do that. Yeah, yeah. I have strategies for that. Yeah. So that's cool for sure. It, the thing that was interesting during the webinar is you, you get a scorecard, which I love those scorecards and, um, you know.

Yep. Exactly. And a lot of people on this leadership, basically, um, self business and team, they scored our, our mastermind group scored pretty high on self-awareness, um, which was cool, but identified that like team or business, they struggled a little bit there, even though they're, they had some blind spots.

They're better than most, but they still realize within this, uh, leadership aspect, the team and the business. Aspect struggle there. So if you could just touch a little bit on the kind of unique ability, teamwork, and then how, once you've gotten clear on yourself and then you go to your, your, is it [00:24:00] team next or business, how, how would you go about team?

Team? Yeah. Perfect. It's, um, because team is where you interface between the individual and the co and the, and the company, right? Yeah. Um, and, and this is my sweet spot. You know, I am, I am passionate about how people work in business. Like teamwork is my jam. I am a sponge for all the strategies, all the profiles, all the things.

'cause I want to help people be even happier. In life in general, but especially at works, I actually think work is the best place to grow personally and professionally. I think when you've got an interface with the world, when you're tasked with creating value for people, it is incredibly educational. And sometimes things you thought worked didn't and vice versa.

So it just keeps you very alert and effective. So I'm very passionate about business as a place for personal and professional growth. So the model, and again, I've just, once I say it out loud, it's like, oh, it doesn't sound all that. Sexy. But it has transformed aware how I coach people in terms of how to think about their own growth, their team growth, their business [00:25:00] growth.

And I can categorize all the, the Cajillion tools that I have and Coach has. Mm-hmm. So it really helps. So just quickly on self, self-awareness, we, I love profiles. I'm certified in four. I set my friend my favorite 17 the other day. 'cause he wanted to know them. I'm like, here's my favorite. Oh my god, there's 17.

And then I did two more. They were also good. So I'm up to 19. I've done way more than that. I referenced those ones, but there you go. So, knowing yourself means you know your strengths, you know your non-strengths, you know your triggers. You know how to show up in best self. You have hopefully some emotional intelligence, intelligence to know how to self-regulate.

You just, you can talk about yourself effectively. You can identify your strengths and you know how to play to them. And you also know what you have no business doing. Again, incompetent. Mm-hmm. Um, and hopefully you've, and the team part though is, is like, okay. This is how I can be most effective in the world, but a lot of other stuff needs to get done.

Mm-hmm. Who do I need around me, right. That can help me do that. And the who's include [00:26:00] technology. I love how Dan talks about technology as automated teamwork. Love that, right? Yeah. It's like, that's true. I can get predictable enough, someone can program it. Um, AI's been a really great friend lately, and so the, the self-awareness turns into team awareness.

And again, I'm talking about people here. Yeah. So if I understand you, Kevin and I looked up your profiles before Alright. Before I started this conversation. Right. I know what's important to you and so I'm, I'm going, it'll help me work with you better. We can produce results better. I know what's important to you.

I know you wanna succeed and achieve. I know you wanna have things be perfect. Correct. And right. I know what your kolby is. Um, I just was referencing print, you know, so I know how to bring out the best in you. Mm-hmm. Well, one of my Clifton strengths is maximizer. That's pretty much the definition of maximizer, taking something great and helping become even like superb.

Right? That is the definitions and that's my number one. Um, so when I know that I can, I can be more effective in the world, but I can also help you be more effective in the world. Mm-hmm. And together our teamwork, we can [00:27:00] see it for a match. Can we support one another? I love, um, Clifton strengths is just a great access point, uh, to things.

It's very understandable. It's research to death. If anyone is like, needs things to be researched and accurate. I think they're at like 36 million profiles. Oh wow. Their validation sample was 2 million people. That's good enough for any testing. I mean, it's Gallup, right? And so go to clifton strengths.com, get your all 34 totally worth it because your top five are, those are like the cards you've been dealt.

And for me, so it identifies talents and then they say talent times investment. So investment of time, skill, your brain. Yeah. All the things equals a strength. A strength is where when it's applied, you accomplish near perfect performance. Hmm. That's sexy to me. Yeah. I want near perfect performance and I want that from the people around me.

I don't want people playing to their non-strengths. That makes no sense. So the top five are fantastic and this is, I have, so I do this for myself and [00:28:00] then immediately I have everyone with whom I am working. Do them as well. So that is how to get self-awareness for yourself and for others. Um, and then another profile that I think is the only teamwork profile I've found, and I'm kind of mad that I didn't come up with it, which is very arrogant of me.

See, but say, but you'll understand why so is working genius. So working genius is if, you know, if they're. One of the things Patrick Lencioni, one of my heroes, team Heroes has identified is that there are six different phases for teamwork. So one is wonder, asking the big questions. So the acronym is widget, by the way, took me way too long to figure that out.

Um, invention is number two. Coming up with ideas to solve the big question. So 30,000 feet, 25,000 feet elevation. Then you get to discernment 20,000 feet elevation. Which of these ideas make sense now or never? Okay, I have invention, discernment. Uh, then once the idea has been decided on let's galvanize people, shall we, that's [00:29:00] the g.

And then once you've galvanize people, sometimes they still need support. That's enablement. And then, so we're down at 10,000 feet at this point. And so think of any project where you went from idea, do, do, do, do, do down the process to when it came to fruition. 'cause you had someone with tenacity who made sure it, that plane landed on the ground, you crossed the finish line.

And in any of those. Those six things, two of them give you joy, your genius. Mm-hmm. Two of them at which you feel competent and two, that frustrate the, you know, what out of you. Yeah. Um, and wonder and tenacity are my two frustrations, right? Mm-hmm. Let me hang out in that upper middle and I'm a happy camper.

The very, very top, the very, very bottom frustrating for me. Um, but it's fun. 'cause then I know how to, how I know how to orchestrate people. I can put them together. I know one of the things I think I did when on the webinar was I. We call it a uniquability re relay. I look at teamwork as a relay race, and so there, I never ran track.

Most [00:30:00] people could tell that I'm not, not athletic in that way. Um, so there are two rules in a relay race, right? Runner in the right place in the race. Number two, don't drop the baton. Right. So this is when you have, when you know who to pass it to and you, and they grab it and they run like the wind. 'cause their uniquability, they don't drop the sucker or go, oh, I've got 18 other batons.

What do you want? Right? That's powerful. So that's the team portion. 'cause it's all great. You can have individuals, but how are we working together? And then finally with business, you really have to understand the why. What are you up to? What are the core values? What's our goal this year? You know, how are we going to apply this amazing teamwork to a defined result?

And so as an entrepreneur, it can't just be same, same old, same old. It's like, oh, where are we gonna improve the practice? By the way, your team knows how they think the practice should be improved. Mm-hmm. Ask them, you know, what are our goals? What are our financial goals? What are our profit goals? What are our learning goals?

Um, [00:31:00] who, how many more people do we wanna serve and care for? Yeah. Right. So that's your job as a leader. Whether you feel entrepreneurial or not, to actually just set some of those bigger targets. Maybe you're not the person to galvanize others what have you. But that is a huge part because then people can orient their talents, they can orient their efforts towards producing that bigger picture.

So that's the self team and, and that's my entrepreneurial leadership model. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, but the team part is really kind of what. What, where the magic all comes together. Yeah, I love that. And um, it's been really huge for us. Uh, we, I really liked the working genius. It was interesting 'cause it line mine lined up with, I felt like my unique ability as well.

So there was a lot of congruency there and you know, we built a team around it, which was. Great. I want to, um, touch on something that you mentioned. I really enjoyed the relay race, uh, analogy and, and kind of lesson you gave us. And definitely love the right person, right place. And then don't drop the baton, but there was a couple things that you talked about, [00:32:00] which I found very fascinating.

I suffer from one of them pretty, uh. Egregiously. Uh, but you talked about the delegation, death grip, and then you also Yeah, exactly. You got the, the great pictures. That's one thing I love about Strategic Coach too, is you guys have amazing, uh, artistry and branding. It's really cool. Uh, but you talked about delegation, uh, death grip and also drive by delegation.

Can you talk about those two extremes that really sabotaged the teamwork? Oh my gosh. Yeah. And, and, and you know, most people recognize the term micromanager, right? Yes. Always looking over people's shoulder. So one of the things that we coined, and by the way, this is from me, coaching entrepreneurial team members.

Mm-hmm. Right? This is just not come outta my head or just talking to entrepreneurs. This came out of working with your teams, so. This is all me just having, putting us actually putting fun names on a reality. Mm-hmm. So, and we all know this, there's something that we love to do, we're really good at. We've done it for a long time and maybe we don't love it anymore, but [00:33:00] we own it.

Yeah. So what happens is we go to pass it over to someone else because we think we should, because we need to be freed up. But we hand it over to them and then we don't let go. Mm-hmm. Right. This is the death grip and they're trying to take it from us. And by the way. You're in charge, you write the checks, you're in the power seat.

So they're gonna tug, but they're not gonna go, dude, give that to me. Like, they're just not gonna do that. They're nice. They're kind and they're like, oh, I guess he doesn't really wanna give it up after all. Yeah. Right. And I'm saying he, it could be easily be she and, and you. And they're like, and they're frustrated.

And you're frustrated 'cause mm-hmm. You won't let go. Right. And maybe you haven't set up the success criteria. Coach has tools like the impact filter for that, which is actually mm-hmm. Everybody, um, you can say what the success criteria are, but it's, it's hard. And, and this is us being a rugged individual that I talked about earlier.

Mm-hmm. Now, the other one that happens. It's kind of hysterical 'cause it's so different. It's the delegation drive by. Yeah. You take that baton baton [00:34:00] and you roughly toss it sometimes quickly at someone's head and you're gone. You're the one running. And they're like, what? And they, they try and catch a baton.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. And they're like, what about? And you're gone. You're not there to answer questions. It's called obligation, not delegation, by the way. Uh, and you're not there to answer questions and they're left holding this thing that you're expecting them to do with no direction. Um, we are all guilty of that sometimes.

Um, so yeah, those are two of the extremes. Or you surround yourself with this beautifully kept, talented, capable team and you still do it all yourself, and they're like, come on. Like you're paying us, like let's go. And then finally, there's a good handoff. And I do actually use impact filters for this. It was like, oh, here's what I would like done, right?

Mm-hmm. So I'll give that to John, right? I'm like, John, I think you'll be great at this. Just to let you know what's in my head. Here's the purpose, importance, and ideal outcome of this task. Here's an example [00:35:00] of when I did it really, really well. Here's a worst case scenario of when I really screwed it up.

Mm-hmm. Learn from my mistakes, please. And here's the success criteria, which is a checklist. Checklists are awesome. Um, for, to how to ensure the best and prevent the worst. Mm-hmm. And then John feels well equipped. It's a good handoff. And then he's like, okay, can I check back with you? And you're like, absolutely.

Let's meet tomorrow at, well, let's me meet, meet in three days at 11 for 15 minutes. You can let me know how it's going. And then he is like, okay, I'm really good on steps 1, 2, 3, and four, five. Do you mean this or that? Mm-hmm. You're like, oh yeah, that was clear as mud. I mean, this. All of a sudden you've done a good handoff, but it was, unless you're conscious about it, it's messy.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the one thing you did also talk with us and, and you mentioned, uh, the impact filter and that, I think that is a free resource. It is, yeah. Just strategic coach.com go to downloads and it'll be. Highly recommend it. It's been something that, uh, I've used a lot. I could [00:36:00] use it even more, but essentially, uh, you know, it, it does a great job.

Like whether you need to develop a community outreach plan for your team Yeah. Or you need to do some kind of new treatment protocol, whatever it may be. Yeah. As you actually sit down and you write out what this looks like and if you sit down with that person and do that and go through that and delegate it.

Strategically like that, uh, there's a high, high chance it's gonna get done and get reported to you. I've suffered from the drive-by delegation. Uh, so I, I, I know I gotta con continue to improve on that, but the impact filter can really help get clear on what that looks like. One trick actually, if, if, if you know that sitting down for you is.

It's gonna take you a while. Are you gonna procrastinate on that? Lemme put it that way. Yeah. There's another trick is you actually pass it to someone. You, maybe you write the ti, the title of it. You are like, you know what, can we meet, you know, two o'clock tomorrow, noon, whatever [00:37:00] time works well. Yeah, two o'clock tomorrow.

And can you interview me on this? 'cause it's really a series of questions and most of us are much better at talking than writing. It's what we do all day. I mean, everyone hates to doing case notes, let's be honest. Um, right. So it's, it's one, when you get interviewed, it's great and the person's job is to capture it, you know, and maybe the treat them as your collaborator.

They'll probably have some good ideas too, and help you, and help ask questions that you'll answer more precisely as a result of their. Being a sounding board for you and have them capture it. So that's an option. Um, great. If you have someone that you think well with. But one other thing I wanted to add, and one of our team members took Dan down the studio one day 'cause we like to interview him.

Mm-hmm. Got good stuff to say. And she said, Dan, why do you have people write things down? And I thought that was the most in end question I've ever heard. I'm like, and then he said something, I was like, oh. He goes, I have people write things down so they can get emotional distance from their thoughts. And I was like, mind [00:38:00] blowing.

I was like, darn, that was a good question. I apologize. And it's true because we have all these thoughts running up in our head and we're like, should I, shouldn't I, I don't know about this. And you're just like, worry and excitement and all the things. It's messy up there. Yeah. We're we're chaotic thinkers by like lots of neurons are firing when you get it down on paper.

And these are all thinking tools. Coach does not do forms. That's, that's for the DMV and, um, but this is, this, this is your thoughts on paper. So they're thinking tools and I love our tools because I always feel smarter at the end. Mm-hmm. And I am smarter at the end 'cause I know more what I want. Right. So it's a brilliant way for you to get some of that emotional distance, see your thoughts on paper, refine them, be able to pass them effectively to someone else, have that conversation.

Mm-hmm. It's amazing how much faster things happen when you take that. It could be five or 10 minutes to get it down. And then all of a sudden this idea, and sometimes you look at it and you're like, oh, this sounded really good in my head, doesn't make any sense at all. [00:39:00] Uh, and other times you're like, oh, this is even better than I saw it.

And then you take action. So, and that's why it's called a filter. Dan is someone with a cajillion ideas. Only about 10% of 'em get through to the team. Mm-hmm. But we know if we get one. Dan thought it through and he's filtered out the other 90% that we don't, that it would be a waste of time or that we're only for him.

So when, if you're someone who has a lot of ideas, please use the impact filter just to protect your team. Mm-hmm. From starting ideas that three weeks later you go, oh, I don't wanna do that anymore, and they've just wasted three weeks. Yeah. Right. So the filtering aspect is real. You waste three weeks and I think you also start to chip away at them taking other serious Yes.

Delegations or things serious because like, oh, it's just another one of Kevin's ideas. I know I had a team member, actually a good friend of mine, he said, oh, I have the hear it three times rule. You what? He said, yeah, I need to hear it three times from my entrepreneur. Mm-hmm. I'm like, that's horrible. Yeah.

Right. I'm like. If that were, if I were the [00:40:00] entrepreneur, I would be so disheartened. Mm-hmm. That first of all, there's some things I'd be really upset, didn't happen right away, and someone wouldn't actually push back at me and say, Hey, can we have a different process for your ideas? Oh my gosh, I was horrified.

But people have that rule. He is not the only one I've heard that from. So yeah, it's you, you erode the credibility with your team if you have too many ideas or they're not thought through or you change them too often. Um, so having a very simple 10 minute tool, like the impact filter is profound for teamwork and trust.

Yeah. Love it. Love it. So to kind of encapsulate that, you know, leadership is the combination of really that self-awareness and that's gonna be your unique ability, teamwork, or sorry, unique ability. And then you have your team and that's gonna be unique ability, teamwork, and all the delegation stuff we talked about.

And then it's, you know, the business having the core values and all that. And, and ultimately if you can really encapsulate this, that's where you probably get the self-managing company. Is that right? Yes. Exactly. When, when, and the cool thing is when [00:41:00] people are doing what they're really best at, so Uniqueability mm-hmm.

They become much more self-managing. Yeah. They, they don't need managing, they need direction. Mm-hmm. Which is where the business, you know, comes into. So that means there's way less. Handholding way less babies. Oh, we're, we're adults here, please. Right. And if you have someone who's not an, an adult mm-hmm.

Find someone who, anyways. Um, yeah. So first of all, way less management, way more leadership, providing direction. That's our definition. Um, and then it frees you up to do more of that and everyone gets to great at that highest level. And you need fewer people. Fewer people at the uniqueability level. Mm-hmm.

Um, if you have a lot of people who are merely competent. Uh, that to me is a bureaucracy. Um, then you do need a lot more people. Yeah, right. That's true. So this is a way to have a lean, successful growing organization. Now you, you need some backup. Let's be clear. You need people in training in case one leaves.

Uh, but it's, it's amazing how, how fast you can go and how quickly you can grow. 'cause it isn't bogged [00:42:00] outta bureaucracy. It's because people are really clear on how they can apply their best talents to the goals and go. It's, it's really, it's really energizing. So yeah, you had a self-managing company and then maybe even a self-multiplying company, which is one that grows itself.

Yes. Love that. And that's so always the goal. And you know, we, uh, a little anecdote on, on our practice, not MCM, the company, but our, our, my private practice here. I had, uh, my other doctor lead our team meeting the other day and start out with a positive focus. I treat patients twice a week now, so I'm not here a few days a week or I'm here, but I'm doing stuff like this and, or I'm traveling with work stuff.

But my positive focus was. You know, I was outta town, uh, for our mastermind and then I was, you know, there's a lot of days I'm not here. And I said, my positive focus is like, um, I feel like I don't have to be here some days and, and things are really good. And so it was nice to realize that we're, we're at that point where we're.

Really close on it. We're gonna really know, uh, soon in June. I'm, my family and I are [00:43:00] taking our first, uh, six week immersion trip. We're gonna be in the uk. Woo. Uh, yeah. So I'll still be doing MCM work, uh, not a ton, but definitely be doing some client work with all that. And creativity stuff around MCM, but I obviously won't be in my practice for six weeks.

And we're, we're hoping to be able to do that every summer. And that was actually something I got, I think it was in 2018, it was a strategic coach member. I was in Atlanta 'cause when, when you guys had a workshops in Atlanta with Kim Butler, who was my coach. And um, someone had done a six week trip and I was like, I need to do that.

So it's been on my. Kind of vision board for a while, and, uh, I wouldn't be able to do that without what Strategic Coach has done for me and helped me with that. And then, you know, ultimately building a self-managing practice is what I, I call our practice as a self-managing practice, hopefully, and we'll find out at the true test with being gone for six weeks.

It's, it, I, first of all, congratulations. That is fantastic. Thank you. And probably lots of [00:44:00] strategy circles. Okay. What could possibly come up that you would need help with? Um, and there's something about team as well, and I haven't mentioned this lately. Mm-hmm. So thank you for bringing it up to me. And that is that you never know how good your team is until you're gone.

Yeah. So one of the things we coach at at Strategic Coach is free days. So taking time away. In this case, you're taking time away for free days with your family, but also M MCM work, but not chiropractic work, right? Yeah. Not hands-on stuff. And so, but here's the corollary to that. Your team never knows how good they are until you leave.

Sure. And so that really is the sign of a self-managing company. And, and what sometimes happens is that people, when they leave their companies. The company does even better. Mm-hmm. When they're not there and then their ego gets a little dented 'cause they're like. Maybe you don't need me, but, but instead, and that is, that's a legit feeling.

I, I would, mm-hmm. I would be like, you're like, oh, but they do need you. They need your leadership. But also it means that you've created such an [00:45:00] effective system for success. Yeah. This is a pat on your back moment, but then you need that, that allows you. To ask, okay, what do you want me for? Mm-hmm. And then just do those things.

I've had clients take a six week sabbatical, they come back feeling un unnecessary, and the team's like, yeah, we still want you for this. The one thing, not the 18 million you thought you had to do. Like, we still need you for this. And you are like, oh, okay. And then you get to see if there's some other places that your wonderful brain wants to take you.

Yeah. Or some other places that need value creation that aren't being served yet. So it provides this new floor. And you're a new platform for your growth. Uh, but, but don't go back. Don't go back and start micromanaging and be, yeah. Don't do the, the death grip delegation. 'cause then you just frustrate everybody.

Um, so that's amazing. I love that. No, that's great. That's, that's a good way of, of putting it. Um, one of the things I've always enjoyed, I'll kind of wrap up with this, is that when a chiropractor, uh, inquires about Strategic Coach via Strategic Coach, [00:46:00] um, one of your team members usually will reach out to me.

I've been on a lot of calls with prospective clients as the mm-hmm. Chiropractor. I don't know if I'm the longest standing one or not, but I've been there for a while now, since 2013. Uh, I'll get on the phone with 'em and tell 'em about my story. And I was also, uh, very grateful. I was interviewed for the testimonial recently from Strategic Coach, and they just did a wonderful job with that, that testimonial.

And it, it really has, uh, it changed my life. And I know obviously Strategic Coach has a certain level of entrepreneur that can qualify for that. And so that's one of the things that. Obviously the ones that you guys connect me with to talk to, they've already reached that barrier. Yeah. Um, but I get a lot of chiropractors reach out to me directly about Strategic Coach, and obviously there's a, you gotta be at a certain level, otherwise you're not gonna be able to really get what you're, what, what you're, uh, intending to.

If you're just, you know, if you just started your practice last month and your revenue is $75,000 a year, like it is just not gonna make sense at that point. Yeah. But I always will [00:47:00] really try to. Ask some questions of that chiropractor or where their mindset is, and uh, and I think if it'll be a good fit for Strategic Coach, but for any chiropractors listening that are thinking about that, how can they find out what are some of the steps they can take to make sure that they're a right fit?

Uh, so great. Thank you for pointing that out. So, strategic Coach is for, uh, creative, successful, collaborative, ambitious entrepreneurs. That is who we are. So, and with a specialty in Yes. Yes. Fill in the blank. Um, and we have a lot of, we have a actually medical is, I would say, yeah. A big growth area for coach.

It's growing. Yeah. It's really fun. Which I love. Well, goodness. I'm, I just turned 60. I'm. Yeah, aging is a thing. I need help. And mind you, I've had, I think I've had a chiropractor since I was 12. Um, oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm a big fan, um, keeps me upright. Uh, so coach is, that's who we're for.

Mm-hmm. And the minimum qualifying income is, is actually 200,000 personal income. So we don't [00:48:00] actually do it by. Practice or company size. Yeah, without too many variables depending on the type of business, because we serve all entrepreneurs. So am I a fan of industry specific coaching absolutely helps you get better at what you're doing, but also what's gonna feed your entrepreneurial brain and who, and you could get a brilliant idea for someone who does.

Manufacturing in Columbia or someone who's got, you know, an IVF practice over in a different state, or someone who's in internet marketing or information marketing or who knows. Right. Or coaching company. Like you could get inspiration from the community that is mm-hmm. Far none our, our, I think our rooms of entrepreneurs.

I know you love yours. Not to, but I love our clients. I think we have the best. Um, so that's, that's a minimum qualification and, and, and in business for a minimum of three years. Mm-hmm. So we are not a startup company. Our tools and stuff are great for growing entrepreneurial companies. Mm-hmm. But we don't wanna be competing with your rent or your mortgage or your salaries that you have to pay your team.

Um, so that's the minimum. And then we also have another at 500. Mm-hmm. [00:49:00] So when people are starting to bump up against that ceiling of complexity. That we are the missing structure to help people grow and to minimize that crisis period that we, we referenced earlier. Mm-hmm. And to give you the, the mindsets we're really a mindset program.

I've decided, uh, is how to think about things. Dan has this great quote you said, the problem is never the problem. The problem is not knowing how to think about the problem. So we give you lots of different ways to think about expanding your freedom of time, your freedom of money, because that funds everything.

Uh, your freedom of relationship, working with people front end backstage, with whom you, mm-hmm, love and trust and wanna care for. And then finally, freedom of purpose. Why are you here? What's your uniquability? What impact do you wanna have on the world? So that's what we're about. So if someone is, wants to expand their freedoms, sees themselves as an entrepreneur, wants to appreciates the field that they're in, but also wants to be exposed at a, a kind of larger framework, I guess, or framework, larger audience then coaches a phenomenal place to be.

Um, our clients are like [00:50:00] you, right? So if you wanna hang out with a room full of really cool Kevins. Coaches to be, they're a lot cooler, but I do, I do love going to the room and, and having other industries and be able to, uh, uh, you know, get out of our box. Sometimes we do within our industry specific seminars and workshops, and I know one of my, uh, overarching motivations working with chiropractors is to.

Get them to be making at least $200,000 a year. And then I would love for them to graduate me and, and go to coach or do or do both or whatever. Right? So that's something that I always have because, you know, we work with a lot of different levels of chiropractors above that and below that. But love getting 'em to coach, uh, especially if they, um, if what you said resonates with them on, on, if they check those boxes of, you know, ambitious and entrepreneurial and those things, and just have a bigger vision than what.

We typically see in chiropractic profession, no, no offense to my profession, but there is a, a ceiling that's lower [00:51:00] than it should be, I think, and I want people to really kind of bust through that. Well, it certainly is lower. It's too low for some people, not everybody. And I'm kudos to all the ones who are just really good craft.

'cause I'm, I appreciate you too. And, but, but I don't want anyone to be frustrated and if, and there is, if there's another level for you, you provide this phenomenal pathway, Kevin. And it's interesting, I am, when people say, oh, sorry. When people say, oh, I'm, I, I'm in this other program, I'm like, great. Mm-hmm.

If someone shows up a coach and has never participated in any other growth platform mm-hmm. I'm like, Hmm, not sure how this is gonna work for you. 'cause, because they'll treat it like school. Yeah. And they'll only wanna listen to the coach and they won't contribute to the other people and they won't be contributed to.

Mm-hmm. So I actually, you know, by anybody else, so I actually deeply appreciate when someone has invested in themselves to learn and to grow, rather than just their schooling. So I love when people participate in masterminds and when they see, when they start to build that structure, and then they get to [00:52:00] a certain point and then we can kick in.

Awesome. But to my mind, people who've actually seen that, oh, I wanna keep learning and growing. That I'm like, okay, now you make sense to me. Um, I think you and I are very aligned in terms of that being pretty important. Perfect. Well, Shannon, I really appreciate your time today. This has been great, and, uh, look forward to running into one of the workshops again soon.

Yeah, I just thought of one more thing. I'm, I forgot to mention the website, strategic coach.com. There you go. Lots of fun downloads. And also if anyone wants some of the other team tools that we were talking about. Mm-hmm. Uh, then you can go to your team success.com. So that's where you can download things like the Communication Builder.

Um, positive focus is also on there, um, some do's and don'ts, which are kind of cool. So anyway, strategic coach.com to learn more about that and get the Impact filter, and then your team success.com for other other resources. Perfect. Thanks again for your time today, Kevin. Thank you so much. Always a pleasure.

Bye.

[00:53:00] I hope you enjoyed this week's episode, and if you wanna make the shift from busy broke and broken to time free and cash confident, or you just wanna continue with the exponential growth, check us out@modernchiropracticmarketing.com. Look at the MCM Mastery tab, watch the short video on there, and check out what we are doing now for evidence-informed chiropractors.

We are equal parts coaching and marketing done for you. Yes, you shoot some videos. We help you with campaign strategies and ideas and really become a thought leader in your community. You shoot those videos, you send 'em to us. We produce, edit, and brand them to you. Then we distribute 'em through all of your channels.

We also take them and we turn it into one good blog per month and every other month we have Darcy Sullivan producing a robust blog with a topic that you pick from her database to help with your SEO. So we essentially become your content marketing agency to make sure your practice is always having ethical, elegant content marketing to help grow your practice.

[00:54:00] On the coaching side, we also help you with everything from marketing ideas to business communications, finances. Anything, practice growth and really try to help prevent you from being stuck on Ad Island and we hold you accountable. We have a great group of doctors that are just doing amazing things, and we look forward to help you out to take that next step in your practice.

So again, check us out@modernchiropracticmarketing.com and learn more.

EPISODE 464: Evidence-based in clinic, Gut-feel in business

Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today excited to bring you a solo episode and we are going to talk about maybe the. Disenchantment of the evidence-based chiropractor and coaching, or are evidence-based chiropractors adverse to coaching and some of the thoughts around that.

Uh, you know, questions, concerns, ideas, reasons, the theories, um, evidence even. And so we're gonna dive into that today. But before we do, I want to make note that we are in a two week window of launching. The founders member for Thrive Thrive 2027. This is an M-P-I-F-T-C-A and MCM conference. Uh, we're hoping for 200 plus people there, but we've opened up a limited amount of spots of 45 that I think will sell out, and so far so good.

Uh, these are founder members. You get the early bird pricing, but you [00:01:00] also get. Special perks such as front row seating. Uh, you get the MCM 30 K course, A follow up , zoom training. Uh, you get raffles for certain things like MPI Seminar, clinical Excellence Channel, uh, a raffle for MCM Group coaching for six months.

You get a free month of CSA that, uh, Bobby maybe and I work together on. And then you also will get to pick, we'll have three different receptions, cocktail receptions. Uh, it'll be, um, an MC M1 limited to 15 people and FTCA one limited to 15 people. And an MPI one, limited to 15 people. Uh, that'll be a cocktail reception after the fact.

And you will. Uh, be able to network with us and even further, uh, than you will in general. Uh, so we're gonna be a lot of great opportunities. We've got a lot of great speakers. Uh, we've got a lineup of Mark King, Bobby Mabe, myself, Ashley Jordan, Brett [00:02:00] Winchester, and Holly Tucker. This is designed for.

Owners, associates, eager students, key team members, right? So the content will be very actionable and strategic. It's not gonna be a potpourri of speakers, kind of random speakers. This is gonna be around practice growth, essentially business, right? We're gonna have leadership. Talk and it's gonna be broken down where, uh, like say when Mark King speaks, it'll be two thirds information and a third heads down work, uh, work together and really put this stuff into action.

So we're gonna have topics such as leadership and practice. Ethical sales, the latest chiropractic marketing strategies, the patient experience and community outreach, planning, the IT factor in practice and also financials. And so we're really diving in on this. . You can go to B DO LY slash thrive 2027 BI do LY slash thrive [00:03:00] 2027.

You can also go to, uh, our M mcm Modern Chiropractic Mastery Facebook Group, and you'll see information in there. You can sign up. We've been sending out some emails, uh, so this is limited to the first 45 for the founders early bird. There will be early bird pricing after that, but you will not get these perks that I mentioned today.

So go ahead and check that out. That's gonna be January 30th and 31st, 2027 in Atlanta, Georgia. We're making it super easy. Direct flights to get to Atlanta, tram to get to the hotel, making it easy, making it. Actionable, not a lot of pomp and circumstance, but there will be vendors, there will be networking opportunities and uh, we're excited to really collaborate an M-P-I-F-T-C-A and MCM event.

And this will be annual, we're gonna do this each year. We're kind of staking our flag on that weekend in January and an Atlanta each year. And we'll have different speakers and themes around practice growth each year. So check it out. B ly slash thrive [00:04:00] 2027.

Alright, so let's, let's dive into today's, uh, topic here. It's, uh, I got kind of like seven. Subtopics within the, the topic of, uh, coaching and our evidence-based chiropractors, uh, coaching adverse.

My first thought on it is what we call the coaching paradox, right? Evidence-based dcs pride themselves on clinical reasoning.

But many avoid business coaching despite evidence, showing mentorship accelerates growth. And we are gonna go into some of the evidence of, uh, accelerating growth a little bit later. Um, you know, and so some of these doctors demand RCTs for treatment, but, but resist, uh, proven business systems and it's, uh, ironic a a little bit there.

And I think. You know, some of that, uh, comes from [00:05:00] the fact that you, a lot of evidence-based chiropractors are very good clinically and maybe hang their hat on. Alls I need to do is be good clinically and business will take care of itself, or business is a dirty word, or if I'm business focused, I can't be patient centered.

Uh, one of the things that I know that I've heard, really, I thought it was just framed well. Is that for a doctor to be good at business just means you're providing the ultimate inpatient experience. Now there's a lot of layers to the patient experience. It's not just the clinical right, it, it's team communication.

It's um, business systems, it's financials are sounds, so you're not stressed about that. It's knowing when you can get good equipment, knowing when you can expand office space, hire team members, uh, there's a lot that goes into the ultimate patient experience, but if you focus on that. You are gonna get better patient outcomes.

And if you're really, really [00:06:00] honed in and focus on the patient experience, you in turn need to learn and have, um, business mentorship and, and, and business acumen. You just do, and you can be patient centered. You can be great clinically, and you also can. Continue to improve on the business side. So that's the, the coaching paradox.

Um, the next one is the, I can figure it out myself. Trap, right? Um, it's kind of how the independent mindset that got you through Cairo school becomes a liability in business. A lot, a lot of you figured it out on your, by yourself. You've, you've figured out a lot of things on yourself. You're, you're smart, you're capable, you are diligent, and you have figured a lot of things out.

Uh, yourself, but sometimes the, the cost of trial and error, reverse learning from someone who's already made the mistakes, uh, or, you know, done things well in certain things, uh, [00:07:00] can really help you get outta that. I can figure it myself out trap. Next is imposter syndrome and, and vulnerability. Uh, definitely.

I recently had a, a client mention that was, you know, going through our practice audit and filling out the details of that and, and, and sharing with me. Really the, the details of the practice was a vulnerable moment for him, and he was nervous, but also excited to be able to have someone really from the outside in, take a look at the practice and help with that.

And so admitting you need help with business sometimes feels like admitting. Like if you were, if you had clinical in inadequacy, right? Uh, it would be like that. Um, even though they're just different, completely different skills, right? No, no one's expecting, you know, you graduate from chiropractic, so we go to eight years of school.

No one's necessarily expecting you to be a. A business person or business savvy, right. It's a completely different skillset. I mean, people [00:08:00] typically, the, the conundrum we run into is we go to eight years of school to become a chiropractor, whereas a lot of people go to 4, 5, 6 years of school to be a marketing specialist.

People obviously get business degrees. Uh, you know, there's communication degrees and there's all these things that we need to hone our skills in that are, that people go to four years or plus the school to, to gain that knowledge. And so it's, it's no doubt it's hard, but you need to, um, you know, get into that rhythm of learning business and being in a group to help that.

And I know, uh, I think one of the other things. Is the fear of being sold to or, or kind of judged by a coach, and that's that vulnerability. Um, and I, that's not a good coach when there's judging. Uh, that's for sure. So, um, I, I can definitely understand the imposter syndrome and vulnerability aspect of that.

Number four is bad coaching experiences in [00:09:00] the industry, right? Traditional chiro coaching often pushes aggressive sales tactics and cookie cutter systems that really conflict with evidence-based values. And we're seeing that it's, it's fascinating, and I'm like, I'm so four. Escaping the commoditization trap and I'm, so for you making good money and having a great value and hourly capacity that I've been talking about for years, I want that to increase and increase.

Uh, but it's been fascinating over the last few years. We're seeing, you know, traditionally the evidence-based chiropractors have really. I've been turned off by the hard sales tactics of, you know, six month care plans, year long care plans, $6,000 packages of things, and, and, and really having to do the hard sales tactics.

To overcome the product. I've talked about this before there, [00:10:00] sometimes in practice there's a product market mismatch, like the market, your community's not really looking for that in droves, and so it takes a hard sales tactic to force that wedge, right? Like to sell that six month care plan for $5,000 is not easy.

There's a, I think it's, it's a pro first, it's a product market mismatch. And in second there's, there's like a 5% or so amount of people that can actually do that well. And then you'll hear those people kind of shouting on the rooftops of how they are able to do that. But then you end up with, um, a. A drove of followers, uh, trying to recreate that.

And it's just hard and it don't feel great about selling those six month care plans and, uh, or year long care plans or those $6,000 packages. And so that's, I think traditionally been something that's turned off a lot of evidence-based chiropractors. But then ironically, we now are seeing it [00:11:00] kind of come to the evidence-based side where, uh, on the rehab side is selling.

You know, five, $6,000 packages for 10 visits or 12 visits. And that's a, there's a, there's a small percentage of people can do that, uh, effectively. And then, you know, what do you, what happens when you don't get the person better in 10 visits and they just spent $5,000? That's, that's a tough pill to swallow for sure.

And that's. Another example of it's, it's kind of a product market mismatch, and you gotta do a really hard sales training and tactics to get that done. And that's just not for everybody. And only if really a small percentage can do it effectively. Uh, but then you, again, you'll hear them, um, you know, show or, you know, talk about they can do that and they can maybe, but a lot of people follow and have a hard time with that.

And we're, we're kind of seeing that in the industry a little bit right now in the ev even in the evidence-based model. And I just think it should be more like frameworks versus force protocols. That's why we've, uh, at MCM. And [00:12:00] again, like I I, I, I've had people on my podcast say James Spencer. I think he's amazing.

He charges a lot. He's built up a, a really good reputation. He's in a very affluent area. He is a, he's a great chiropractor. He is over years has gotten even better. He's just built something special and he's able to, to charge for that. Uh, I, my concern is when people try to charge for that, um, and they don't have the clinical chops or.

The expertise, recognition in the community yet, uh, to, to command four or $500 for a session. And so you gotta, uh, that sometimes can take time. And even in that podcast with James, he mentioned he didn't start at those rates. He worked himself up over time and kind of, uh, cured or curated his patient base there.

And so, um, you know, be careful. I know like there's just been a lot of bad. Coaching experiences in the past of where you feel like you've been put in a box and it's forced protocols. And if you don't do it that way, [00:13:00] you're, you're going to fail. And it's the only way to do it. So I don't like that. Uh, I really like frameworks.

That's why we develop the MCM doing it right framework, so we're not, you know, we're not putting you in a box. It's more about we teach you entrepreneurship, we teach you the financials, we teach you marketing. We really hone in on the patient experience. We help you build a great and train a great team, and then ultimately give you the practice systems that you, uh, desire.

So, uh, be, just be careful of the force protocols, the hard sales tactics. I want you to get good at sales. I really want you to get good at ethical sales, but it's gotta be a product market match to do it at scale and, uh, for a heart, a, a large percentage of chiropractors to be able to do it and feel good about it.

Alright, number five, the ROI skepticism quote, I can't afford coaching. Um, well, you know, you can leave quite a bit of money on the table annually [00:14:00] through inefficiency, right? And you just kind of need to reframe coaching as the highest ROI investment that you can make versus a lot of other, um, expenses.

And so I actually went to, um, perplexity, right? So using AI. Perplexity is a really good one in particular for research. And so I asked it like, what's the, uh, ROI Do you have valid, this is my prompt. Do you have valid research on coaching ROI? Yes. Here. Is the research backed data on coaching ROI. And there's, there's a bunch here.

Key statistics. Um, just read a few metrics. Global study, fortune 500, a 7.88 x return from executive coaching. Um, so that's pretty fascinating. Another one here. I-C-F-P-W-C, global Survey Companies. Median seven x return on a coaching investment, um, Manchester Inc. Study Fortune [00:15:00] 1000, executive average six x return on coaching investment.

Um, first time managers program. Had a, had a big one there. Small business impact, 92 rep. Uh, percent reported direct impact on business growth. 88% deemed coaching va. Invaluable. Invaluable. Uh, 75% said value. Far exceeded investment. Um, you know, and. There's just a, a lot to, to consider there. I know, you know, sometimes numbers can be, can be challenging, but when you look at a return on something, you do coaching for a year or a couple years or continuously, like I've, I've just, I've been doing coaching since 2012.

I've been with strategic coaching since 2013. I've hired. Specific coaching, like, um, I had a leadership coach for a couple years. I've had, I had financial coaching for four years, five years maybe. I had a public speaking coach for a [00:16:00] year, so I always have my bread and butter coach. For me, it's strategic coach, and then I just inherently being, you know, kind of leading MCM and, and having our group coaching calls and our one-on calls.

I learn having our mastermind group I learn, so I just, I have a lot of people around me and. And I honestly just, you know, couldn't do achieve what I have with without it and what I've found fascinating. With, um, being in the Mastermind in particular and being able to coach chiropractors is we've got a lot of high level docs in both our, um, our coaching program and our mastermind program, and they stick with it.

They do the work, they, um, implement things. They know it's gonna help out. They don't get left on an island. Uh, are vulnerable sometimes on things when they need help, and it's just amazing to, I, I've got so many examples of chiropractors that have joined us, put in the work and have really taken off. I've had quite a bit on them on the podcast.

Um, there's quite a [00:17:00] few that I just really am impressed with how good they are clinically, but yet in our mastermind group or. Doing our coaching program. Some, a lot of them did our coaching program now in our high level mastermind group, and they just, they've seen the ROI, but I wanna give them the credit because, uh, from the outside end, those are the ones you think, oh, they don't really need coaching.

They got it. Figure it out. They got great businesses. Well, they'll be the first ones to say they do, but they're also the first ones that take action. They don't sit on the sidelines. They don't. Procrastinate chronically, they actually put in the work and continue to get even better because also the times always change, right?

Like, uh, if you've been practicing long enough, the environment of practice always changes and you need to keep up with that. And so I. Um, the ROI is there. If the ROI is not there, it's because you're running into maybe a coaching program that is trying, is not aligned with your values. It is trying to do force protocols or frankly, you're not implementing the, the, the [00:18:00] strategies, right.

Just for whatever reason. Um, sometimes valid, sometimes not. Uh, but the ROI is statistically there and I would challenge anybody on that if they don't think it is. Number six is one of the things, um, we gotta be careful of with evidence-based chiropractors is they're often in isolation in echo chambers, right?

They, they often practice in isolation without peer groups who understand their approach. And the, the compounding cost of not having a sounding board for decisions can be pretty substantial. I think that's one of the great things about our programs is you get outta your echo chambers in isolation and you get a lot of great ideas.

From us, from other chiropractors, and it really helps you grow and evolve your practice and sometimes take on really hard challenges. We've had quite a few clients, you know, a lot of times po like good challenges like having to buy office real estate on a whim, um, having to navigate EHR [00:19:00] changes, having to navigate insurance changes in particular states we're dealing with right now.

And so having a sounding board to work through that can be very, very helpful. Our signature program had they, you have access to me through Voxer messaging as much as you need, and they get back to you and help you out. Um, we have one-on-one coaches that really get the intimate knowledge of your practice and help you grow.

And so, uh, it's, it's just been amazing for chiropractors that have put in the work I. And then lastly, number seven is the timing excuse. You know, I'll get coaching when I'm more established. We have, we have someone right now that, uh, hasn't even opened their, we have a few, we've had quite a few over the years, but right now, just off the top of my mind, we had someone to join and he hasn't opened up his practice yet, but he wanted to get a six month running start on it.

And so he's getting after it, which is pretty cool. And so if you, um. Use that excuse of get more established. You might, you might be stuck longer. And so we want to [00:20:00] make sure you don't have that as well. And so, um, sometimes the timing doesn't feel right. I remember when I joined Strategic Coach, I, uh, it was 2013, we.

I had just, uh, bought my office, real estate, spent all the money I had on down payment, do all that. I had to move. And, uh, there was, we, we had a, a massive EHR situation, and it was like a, it was that same, within that same six month period of time. I dolled out the money for Strategic Coach, which you had to pay up front.

And I think at the time it was. $7,200. It's not, it's, it's more than that now. Uh, fair amount more than that now. But, uh, I had to write that check and I just, you know, I just was, I was believing kind of more in myself than anything. I, I knew Strategic Coach was good, um, but I also was believing in myself that it, the timing didn't seem perfect, but I needed it and I can make it happen.

And I, I did it and, uh, there was no looking back from there. So, um, you know, whether you're. [00:21:00] Um, struggling right now in practice where practice is going good. What you wanna get even better, or you got a really big thing you want to tackle. Like we, we talk a lot in our groups about opportunities and obstacles and you need help with that.

Um, check us out modern chiropractic mastery.com. We've got a handful of different programs that are suited for you and its frameworks and coaching. It's not practice management and force protocols. And we meet you where you are, give you a lot of ideas and guidance, but don't try to, you know, put you in a box and do it our way or the highway.

So, uh, I hope that helps. I hope there's some insights there on why coaching, whether it's with us or someone else, is beneficial for you. I highly recommend it. If you want, take that next step in your career.

EPISODE 465: The Start-Up Practice Journey with Steven Reinlie DC

Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm bringing an interview with Dr. Steven Reley from Austin, Texas. He's been in our MCM coaching program for a bit now, and we really lay out his career path and then, uh, making decision to go from, uh, working for a practice for quite some time to opening up his own practice a little over a year or so ago and, and how that journey has been for him and some of the.

Lessons and the good things, the hard things and, and all the stuff that goes into opening up a practice. And we, we kind of dive into that, which was great to sometimes, you know, spotlight some people that are making that dive into, let's call it chiropractic entrepreneurship and, and what it's like and how they are navigating, being able to do that.

So before we do, I just wanna make mention. We are gonna be, if you're in Europe or you want to go to Europe, I'm gonna be with Dr. Chris Chippendale in the [00:01:00] uk June 20th, 2026. And we're gonna talk about the patient experience. It'll be a one day masterclass. He'll do half of it. I'll do the other half. You will leave that day, uh, really, really understanding how to apply a great, remarkable patient experience to your clinic.

You will leave with a new patient experience. It won't just be theory and didactic lecture. You will work through improving. What your patients are experienced, and it's not just clinical. There's a lot of things that go to it, so we'd love to have you there. We have early Bird until March 31st. You can go to Bitly b.ly.

Forward slash MCM UK 26. It'll be on June 20th in London. So check that out. We'd love to see you there. I know we got quite a bit of, uh, listeners here that are from Europe, and we'd love to, to see you there and connect with you even further. So without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Steven Reley.

Dr. Kevin Christie: All right. Excited to [00:02:00] have Steven on the show here today to, uh, really talk about kind of a origin story of graduating from school, going into a, a, a career path and, and where we're at now. Uh, before we dive into some of that, tell us about yourself.

Steven Reinlie: Um, yeah, thank you for having me on. Always a pleasure to do something like this.

Um, my story is probably not all that different from a lot of people's stories that decide to go into the chiropractic field. I graduated December of 2021 from Parker, um, and I was our class valedictorian. I don't say that to boast, I say that to put out there that there was nobody knocking on my door to hire me.

Yeah. So I always like to remind people that it's about who you know. How you present yourself that's so important in this type of work. I mean, the clinical skills are obvious. I think we all aspire to be good at it, but just getting [00:03:00] good grades on your test questions doesn't mean much. Uh, so, you know, I got out just like many of us do.

You're looking for finding a way to pay back your student loans and pay for your life. Uh, joined a practice here in Austin, Texas. Uh, I grew up in Round Rock, Texas. Um, so moved home. Got married a few months later. I mean, it was a lot of life happening at one time, which I'm sure many of us can relate to.

And got off to a really great start as an associate. And I was with that practice, uh, up until about, um, two years ago, let's just call it that. Mm-hmm. Before branching out and doing my thing. And here we are doing this now and it's been a lot of lessons. It's been a lot of fun. It's been sometimes staring at the ceiling and wondering what the hell did I get myself into?

But I feel like many of us probably experience those emotions regularly.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, and I'm glad you kind of brought up, you know, the fact that we are in a unique profession where, you know, if you go to Harvard Medical Medical School and you are top of your class, like you're gonna get a top residency, [00:04:00] then you're gonna get a top job offer that it's gonna be $500,000 a year.

You know, like there's certain medical professions where a lot of that. Does carry a lot of weight, but, uh, like they say, uh, the, the, the DC in our last of our name is basically what our grades are. Alls you need to, to graduate and you can still, you can still be successful, right?

Steven Reinlie: That's right. Yeah. I mean, the only, the.

The only thing I got out of it was, uh, a sleepless night. 'cause I did have to give a big, you know, speech and, uh, that like, I prepped for months. I had a feeling that that was coming. So I went to Toastmasters, did the whole thing. I kept questioning like, am I the right guy for this? 'cause I'm not like, super rah rah turned the power on chiropractic.

The guy that went after me that was like. The, uh, big speaker of the event, I can't remember his name, but he was talking about your blazing PISA forms. My father-in-law still brings that up and very not like how many probably of us practice. Not anything against an adjustment, but like it was very talk the tick [00:05:00] for those that understand that world and, uh, like that's just not me at all.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, it's, uh, but yeah, it just kind of shows that, um, there's more to it when we do become a chiropractor and we actually graduate. There's, there's a lot to becoming, let's call it a, a, a successful chiropractor. And there's a lot more, uh, sleepless nights. Probably the best thing you got outta that experience was the learning how to do some public speaking, right.

Steven Reinlie: Yep, absolutely. So it's just like anything, it's a muscle that you have to exercise. Some of us are blessed with more muscle than others, but it's a trainable thing and uh, it was a good thing to go through. It's helped me, you know, uh, I, for whatever reason, get asked to do stuff like that from time to time, and it's good for building your network.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I, you know, I wanted to bring you on, you know, I've been fortunate enough to coach you a little bit here for the last year and a half or so, and, and kind of that, that transition from associate to, uh, owner and, and, and dive into that transition there. And I, I want to set the [00:06:00] tone a little bit for the audience where I, I believe you did a good job within your associateship to grow a practice within a practice.

I think one of the. Mistakes that a, a lot of young dcs make a lot of associates is they, they might go into it with a mentality of like, oh, I don't want to build his or her practice. You know, you almost kind of go into this job, uh, wanting everything to be provided to, to you and, and not. Also build your own patient base because you have this feeling that, oh, I'm gonna leave in a, in a fair amount of time and I don't want to put all that effort.

It's something I can't take with me. And, and you didn't have that mindset. You built a, a really nice practice patient base within that practice. And I think, um. You know, young kyber need to understand that when you do open up your, your own practice, if you decide to do that, right, like I don't think it's for everybody.

Not everybody has to open up their own practice to have a successful [00:07:00] career, but if you de, if that is what you want to do, you probably rather it not be the first time you've tried to build a patient base. If it happens that way, fine, but. Look at it as a really good test run if you are working within a practice.

So what were some of the things you took out of that experience of like building a patient base within the four walls of say, another practice that, uh, was beneficial for you?

Steven Reinlie: Um, I come from a father who's a serial entrepreneur, so I have some level and understanding and did the ride to work with dad stuff in the summer and

Dr. Kevin Christie: mm-hmm.

Steven Reinlie: Location, location, location, son, and you know, all that. Right. So. Some of this wasn't completely foreign to me, but it's very different. Um, yeah. You know, trading hats from associate to owner or even if you're an associate and they feed you versus like you're an associate that you gotta go out and get still 'cause your paycheck is dependent to some degree on it.

Um, I am a pragmatist by nature, and [00:08:00] after two or three years of in this practice, I realized that my income was very much capped if I didn't go and learn how to get my own clients, develop my network. And so I was able to negotiate myself into a purely revenue based share split. Mm-hmm. Um, and I pitched it to him as, Hey man, this removes overhead from you.

Like if I don't show up, you don't make, you don't lose a dollar. Right. But I'm taking risk. You're not taking as much risk anymore. Now I want to, since I'm taking some of that risk, I want more ownership of the revenue share. Um, and so we were able to agree to some terms that made sense for both sides. Um, as I like to bring up to him, every dollar that comes to my paycheck is a dollar less in your business.

So I'm not, you know, I'm not, uh, unaware of the negotiation that we're doing here and trying to provide values. He can also expand. Um, I say that because, you know. I had to go out and learn how to look for opportunities. That's probably one of the best things that came from setting up our [00:09:00] arrangement.

Like that you listen to your patients and they say, oh yeah, I'm working with a personal trainer, or blah, blah, blah, and it's, you know, that's important to know, but it's important to go, oh, that's great. Would you like me to coordinate some care? You know, I can talk with your personal trainer or whoever.

Just like many of us might send narratives to PCPs or those types of things. So I just made it a habit and then I put it in our intake paperwork. Do you work with a personal trainer? I'm, you know, data mining for contacts. Mm-hmm. Um, so I'd go out and make some phone calls. Some people are super interested in connecting and some aren't, and you just play that game.

Um, and then I learned some of that on somebody else's dime, I guess you could say. Mm-hmm. Nurtured it. Schedule. Got busy enough. You know, get into life and you kind of put some of that stuff on the back burner. Um, I was able to negotiate myself in a, a good enough place that I could say for most associates I was probably in the top percentile of earning and I had some version of our life of golden handcuffs.

And then it started to become [00:10:00] apparently clear that that practice life cycle. Was very much changing from where, um, I had learned and kind of developed some of those skills. Mm-hmm. And a couple years ago I started packing my parachute for a variety of other reasons. And, um, one of my personal, or I guess you'd say professional goals several years ago was to meet with 40 people that I had never talked to, you know?

Mm-hmm. Practice hold leads, practice developing. You know, just getting a warm intro and an email and that's it. That's all I have to go on. Um, basically once a week so I could learn to navigate those. Because I knew that was a skill, like I was gonna have to have a lot of confidence with to go out and develop my network.

Plus, you never know what opportunities are out there. I was hunting for, Hey dude, I got a room over here, you can rent it for me. Mm-hmm. That stuff just doesn't show up on, you know, uh, LoopNet or whatever.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. So

Steven Reinlie: it was a skill to that I find invaluable, which gave me a lot of confidence for kind of stepping up and [00:11:00] going out and doing this thing now.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely. And then, uh, let's, let's chat about where that transition was. When you left and opened up your own, you, uh, were subletting a space. How did you find that space? Was it through a contact that you had met?

Steven Reinlie: So, honestly, um, it was through exactly that exercise. Um mm-hmm. I had a patient. Say to me, she didn't know any of this was going on.

She goes, Hey, you should meet my personal trainer. He actually is in your neighborhood or near where you live. I said, oh, I'd love to. This was during that year of the 40 people.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: And I walked in there and she set me up, said nice things about me. Um, he was super easy to talk to, get along with we same in terms of age, relatively speaking.

So there's just, you know, you're looking for any one thing and we do this all day long. We are intervening. Yeah. Literally all day long trying to find like, oh cool, you're into barbecue. So am I. What kind of smoker do you have? Just finding something to develop a relationship. Yeah, so, um, we hit [00:12:00] it off. He was a former NFL player for a few years.

He was looking for someone that did the work that I did, 'cause it helps him and his business and its appearance. And there was just enough space that we needed to throw up a ceiling and another wall. So we made that happen. Um, so I knew, like I had that in my back pocket. It took several months before this all transpired.

Mm-hmm. But I knew that that was there. And then I had another, uh, contact that I had made here in the Austin area that I had been seeing his, uh, uh, he's a personal trainer, his clients for probably eight years at this point or whatever it was. And that was again, from just. Person mining, talking to a previous client that we both shared.

She said she loved him and then I went over there. Mm-hmm. He's a stalwart, Eric Cressey, uh, blog reader, um, that I've done all of his mentorships up there in Boston. So we hit it off right away, spoke the same language, and then he just started sending me business. And so I had called him about a month before I thought stuff was gonna hit the [00:13:00] fan and said, Hey dude, like.

I think I'm gonna need a space. Can I put my portable table in there for a little while? And he said, sure. So after, um, you know, the transition happened, I was over there cleaning his space up, readying it for mm-hmm. Potentially the next day's business. And I'm walking out of his facility and a friend of mine has a clinic right across the parking.

So I walk in there, it's like a Tuesday at 10:00 AM and he's, we get to chitchatting and he's like, what are you, what are you doing here? Like, you know, because I'm usually busy seeing patients.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: And I explained to him what was going on and he is like, Hey man, I got a third room right over there. You can rent it from me.

And then that's how that happened. So

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah,

Steven Reinlie: it goes back to relationships who, you know.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Steven Reinlie: A great book that I read was Rejection Proof. I probably read that 10 years ago. You just, you don't know what opportunities are out there until you ask. And most people don't want to say no 'cause it's uncomfortable.

So even if they can't please you, there might be this adjacent [00:14:00] door that's available that you had no idea to ask about. Mm-hmm. Because I didn't walk into his office thinking like, maybe he's got another room. I walked in there, just say hi. 'cause I had shit else to do that day. Yeah,

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah.

Steven Reinlie: And uh, he was like, oh man, look at this opportunity I have.

And I'm like, sweet. Actually do need that opportunity. Um, your relationships with people is probably the. Biggest thing I've learned over this last several years. And, uh, your opportunities are directly tied to that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I have a, uh, story, uh, I'm getting old enough now where I have stories from quite a long time ago, and they seem to, uh, come, come to a pass here every so often where you're like, oh, I didn't realize that was going on there.

But, um, I had an opportunity back in 2009. I was inside of a gym. And I'm, and I'm gonna, uh, tease out a little bit with you on moving outta the gym, but we'll get there in a second. Uh, I, I kind of knew the gym situation I was in at the time was on Delicate terms because the business of the gym didn't seem like it was [00:15:00] doing so good.

And I had someone connect me with this woman. She had a place called Ellen's, uh, fitness Studio. Right? So I go over to Ellen's fitness studio and I check out the space and it really wasn't gonna be a, this space was okay, but I can only use it certain during certain times and it wasn't gonna work out too much.

And this, this woman was like in her fifties, right? And I just kind of. Kind of poo-pooed it and, and didn't do it. And, and I move on. And so fast forward, it's like 2015. And the person that, uh, had connected me with that Ellen's fitness studio, she's like, did you know what Ellen ended up doing? I'm like, do you know, do you know who Ellen is?

And I'm like, no. What? She's so Ellen like a year later. Gets connected with this person that knows how to franchise things and they opened up Orangetheory Fitness together. The first one was, the first one was in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, which is next to Davy, Florida, which is where her studio was and my practice was.

And I was like, you gotta be [00:16:00] kidding me. 'cause I mean, if I could have hitched my wagon to her

Steven Reinlie: Yeah,

Dr. Kevin Christie: you could've been huge

Steven Reinlie: corner in every big city.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, you could. You could have chiropractic clinics in every Orangetheory fitness. Right. I'm sure it wouldn't have come. Come to that. But yeah, I just was like, man, I can't believe I, I, I blew that opportunity.

Steven Reinlie: Well, that's kind of how you and I first got connected is I was. Being tasked potentially with a similar opportunity in another fitness studio that is a big franchise and you know, that has come and gone as quick as it came on. You know, I remember when I filled out my first forms, I thought maybe at some point in the next year or two I'd have six locations just because of the nature of the business that was asking me to potentially put offices in all those places.

And we've gone from six down to one, one really good. That's, that doesn't sound good, but it's super successful. I'm very happy with it. But again, you don't know. You sometimes you think, Hey, this is a golden ticket, and it just dovetails a different way. Sometimes you think this isn't gonna work and it is a golden ticket.

[00:17:00] It's, you know, it's keeping options alive, finding, um, high upside, low risk, which is what that was, and negotiated that agreement to be extremely low risk on my end. And who knows, it could have been a high upside and it just didn't work out.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it, it, it didn't, but, uh, probably for the better and I know.

When you and I started working together, you know, you had, you had the few different locations going on and you were growing and obviously running yourself ragged with all that. And one of the things that I always try to recommend, because you just never know the nature of the, the particular gym you might be running, and I, I do think it's a great launching pad for.

Uh, chiropractor, especially kind of, you know, evidence-based sports, chiropractor types. I think it is, it can be really good, but you need a plan to get out. And that was something that, that you've, you maintained, but you did a great job of getting busy enough to then, um, you know, kind of graduate from renting from the gym.

And, and so tell us now where, where you're at, what you're doing and, [00:18:00] and why you did consolidate down.

Steven Reinlie: Yeah. So, um, I realized two major things. One, I'm not in the luxury practice situation. I have kids, I have a mortgage, um, in my late thirties, turning 40 here pretty soon. We've got 4 0 1 Ks and Roth IRAs and five 20 nines and all the things like, I'm sure many do.

So the idea of just staying myself with a tiny, tiny little nut to crack is not really a thing. If I were a made man and already 55 and just, this is doing it for fun, saying low overhead and inside of a gym would be nice. Most, most gyms, I think there is a, there is a huge, huge fab going on right now.

That cash base is the only way to do practice and you have to go that route. Clinic, gym, hybrid, um, maybe not even that, uh, BV clinic inside of a gym, rather. Yes. And you'll always have an influx of patients [00:19:00] and it's the Goldilocks of practice, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Steven Reinlie: Um, I have a very close friend of mine, uh, that was with this previous practice that I was part of, and he is in, still in one of the biest gyms here in town.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Steven Reinlie: And he can command any price. You name it, he can command it. Yeah. It's not even, it's like. Pocket change. Cool. No big deal. But he's only so scalable and maybe he'll do more, I don't know. I'm not casting judgment. I'm just, he's one guy. Right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: So at some point you still end up trading time for money.

And as I said from the outset, I am interested in building a business. I've already had a job. I'm not interested in building another job. I would like a business. And so most of these gyms with high, high earners and people that have lots of. Uh, disposable income, they, they just don't exist. They're hard to get into.

People that are in them don't wanna give up for obvious reasons. So then we're left with most of these other gyms, right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: And they're [00:20:00] all, you know, 1 49 a month or 1 79, 2 25, whatever that is. And that's a nice spot. And most of those people have some disposable income. So it is a fertile ground. But if you think you're gonna go into a gym with 140, uh, members and you're gonna run some, some bang in practice, like you got another thing coming.

So when I got into this gym, my, I, I didn't just rest on my laurels and just do a bunch of workshop to 140 members. Uh, you have to go out and still make connections, meet people and keep your, your, your mindset very broad. Mm-hmm. Because, I mean, truthfully, in my opinion, I think it takes about three or 400 members to service one PT or chiro inside a gym.

And I just, there's very few gyms that have that type of membership that isn't like transactional in the sense that it's more value budget. Mm-hmm. Focused, um, but 69 bucks a month and then they can grow a membership to 500 people. You know, if you're commanding 300 bucks a month for your membership, [00:21:00] it's unlikely you're gonna grow a gym business so large that it will solely support a clinician.

And then if you have any business. Savvy, you're gonna be like, well, why am I just renting space? I should hire a clinician. Yeah, right. So like there is just this constant cognitive

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: Dissonance that's going on there. So I don't think this Goldilocks exists. I think it is, is exciting. But

Dr. Kevin Christie: let me touch, I want to tease that out a little bit 'cause that's, it's, it's a really good point.

And then, and then we will, I'll let you get back onto that. Sorry. Sure. Um, it's a great point because I. You know, for those that in a gym, there's definitely some, and we actually have a few clients where they've got really good gym situations. The gym's been there for a long time. Very stable, very busy.

Good, good flow. Um, but to your point, those particular doctors aren't. Reliant on just the gym members. And I think that is a huge mistake and, and I, uh, haven't really talked about that on, on the podcast before. So I'm glad you brought that up, is that if you [00:22:00] do go into a gym setting, uh, even if it's a great gym, and if you do get some patience from the gym, awesome.

I want you to think of that as kind of gravy and you need to build a real practice. You need, you need external people coming into your practice for it to be a legitimate practice. You can't just rely on, on the gym members. So I'm, I'm glad you brought that up.

Steven Reinlie: Yeah. I view it as two things, uh, a floor.

Right. Yeah. Like just being present, I'm likely to land some clients. Right. Yeah. And that helps.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: And then, um, it was inexpensive, relatively speaking

Dr. Kevin Christie: for

Steven Reinlie: sure. Um, and it's hard to find a room to rent. It just really is. Mm-hmm. Um, it's doable, but it's hard. And so my goal with that was. Awesome. This gives me as much runway as I possibly can with the finances we already had saved.

Yeah. And then it keeps my nut as low as possible. Yeah. And it allows me to hoard money. 'cause I didn't, I, I've [00:23:00] have hardly paid myself anything compared to what I'm used to and mm-hmm. We're fine in getting by, but it's not sustainable. Mostly because I needed a hoard of money to go pay for this new office.

I can happily say I've paid for outright, yeah, a fully funded op, you know, OPEX account syncing fund, emergency fund, all the stuff from, you know, things that your program teaches from profits, first model and et cetera. Um, being in that micro clinic situation. And not taking my eye off the goal, which was to build a real clinic, I was able to position myself to go after it with money and not debt.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's huge. And that was the thing that I do preach. You know, I, for me it was, I was in gym then I was in an orthopedic group. But if you're gonna be in those situations, definitely try to leverage the low overhead. Get external, get people in there, into the, into your practice. Even if it's in [00:24:00] a gym, save up money and be able to, um, at some point, if it makes sense, which I think I would say, uh, the vast majority of the time, it does make sense.

I do again, know some chiropractors that have had a really good long term situation and that's awesome. Um, but to, to get your own office space so that you can then. Think about the next steps there. So, uh, tell us about your, your new space and, and what you're excited about on the future with that.

Steven Reinlie: So the new space is great.

It's about 1300 square feet, which is a huge upgrade from 150, whatever that was, you know, and then, you know, places that I was at had common areas for exercise and rehab, but I paid for the 150, if you will. Um. Outside of that, you know, I've got two offices for care or you know, tables, and they have their own very minimal setup for bands and lightweights for exercise.

The flow that I see in this office is I can bounce between two rooms. I can mm-hmm. Leave. [00:25:00] Needles in people and run therapies or et cetera, eventually have patients staged once we scale to more volume where it's really necessary because I'm, uh, my billables per hour are too low. They fit the model that I was in.

But I don't have the, the volume quite yet to demand all the other pieces that go with running a more sustainable billables per hour type practice. Yeah. I also have a small space for exercise in gym, and then I have a very small space for, um, a staff room. And I have just recently, uh, at the beginning of January, hired my first full-time staff member.

Who is an hourly wage who has helped take some of the burden off me. Now we're still early on and we're creating an our wheel for what that looks like, but as I was commenting a moment ago, today's the first Friday and god knows how long months that I have my paperwork done, when I'm gonna walk outta the office, which is on my [00:26:00] KPIs, and I can finally go red to green for once.

It's been months since I could say that. So this clinic is, is. Um, not efficient right now, but that's growing pains. I've only been in, in it for two and a half months. I, I signed a two year lease with first right of refusal, with the goal of, I could always tack on another year or two. Mm-hmm. If I need to.

And I'm not ready to move out of this space, but it allows me to stick my elbows out. 'cause before I, I was stuck. I couldn't hire a staff member. There was nowhere for them to go. Um mm-hmm. And I hadn't, I did not have a second room, so I had maxed out what I had and my schedule was, you know, if you look at your Jane stats or whatever, it was just a hundred percent utilized for months and months and months, and I had no lunches staying late.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Steven Reinlie: So now I can become a touch more efficient, which improves my billables. I've got a place for staff so they can start taking over my social media things, and I can just become the, the, uh. You know, character, if you will, in all of our [00:27:00] videos. Um, so this clinic, it's going to grow to three to maybe four patients per hour over time.

I have space for my sports science stuff. I have space for actual real exercise. I have space that I can brand my own videos. I have space for a staff member, and then if I'm lucky, I can start bringing on other. Therapies, whether it's shockwave, laser or something else. Uh, you, you name it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And you know, you are a cash-based practice and it's something that we've been kind of, you know, you've built up the practice and I think you and I have worked together to try to now carve out the, the future in a sense.

And, and you've been putting all the work to do that. And, and part of that was Yeah, we needed to. Maybe get a little more efficient with the patient care on how many you can see within an hour without sacrificing quality of care. Uh, how do we, we've increased rates, you know, and you did well with that, and that there was no blowback on that at all.

And so we're, you know, I think a lot of the, a. Let's call it the, the, the rehab based [00:28:00] or sports chiros, uh, that are cash based can struggle with that hourly capacity number. And so we, you know, kind of worked through what those capacity blocks are. Money wasn't really a capacity block for you. It was more of, like you said, time and space and maybe a little bit of a, of equipment.

We've, you've, you've done a good job of fixing the space block and you got new space and doing all that. And now hiring, uh, you know, you took on a lot. You know, you moved, you hired you, you did, you, you closed down a, a location. I wouldn't say close it down, you consolidated, which really I think is gonna be a, a, a higher leverage point for you, which has been great.

And so you just, you you're consistently taking what the next block is in, then attacking it. And that opens up to the next level there, uh, which has been pretty cool to see, which. Has allowed you to utilize profit to then reinvest in the business. And I wanna commend you on the delayed gratification. Um, 'cause you're not 28, you're [00:29:00] 38 or in the late thirties.

Right. And so it's, it's even, it gets even harder to have delayed gratification in your late thirties and then in your late, late twenties. Right.

Steven Reinlie: It is tough. I mean,

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah,

Steven Reinlie: my wife's been literally barking at me for years to buy a truck. 'cause our family needs it. Yeah. And I'd be taxing in our personal life for years 'cause I didn't know what was gonna happen in my professional life.

Yeah. I mean this has really been four or five years, basically since the fall of 2020. I've just been in taxi mode. I have not been in attack mode. We paid off our student debt, um, which everybody knows that's a huge thing. Whenever Uncle Sam decided to turn that back on, I can't remember what it was, but it was literally the night before it was like, okay, payments are due.

And we had been just saving, 'cause you know, you didn't have to pay anything for those couple of years. And we wrote that last anti-climactic check off and it was done. I remember like, that's it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah,

Steven Reinlie: that's just go to bed now. So we, we just took care of that and then just took care of the next thing and then took care of the next thing [00:30:00] and just.

Uh, to, I view this business as a vehicle for us to mm-hmm. Either buy back time or, as I've always said, I retire when I choose to go to work, not because I have a certain number of money in my account. I don't know if I'll work forever and see patients forever. I don't know. And at this point, it's not a thing that I need to know.

I'm really focusing on. How can I build this to be a real business? I don't want it to revolve around myself. I don't want people to just only refer to my business because of who I am. I want to provide kick ass jobs for people that come in here and either want to be, you know, they are a clinician and mm-hmm.

Want to be a part of it, or it's. Some type of support staff or a personal trainer. I want people excited to show up.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: And in order to do that, that takes time. It takes energy, it takes some vision, it takes some money. It takes being really disciplined fiscally and delaying, delaying, delaying. Mm-hmm.

And [00:31:00] you know, you have to toss, you have to play tug of war. Um, yeah. Between what are your personal goals? What are your professional goals? Um, and so I have a very supportive wife and spouse, and she's been wildly patient with me. She's an entrepreneur as well. Mm-hmm. She's the complete opposite of me in that regard.

She's, she's a creative, so, um, it's, it's been fun to see how your personal finances. Your business. Finances almost mirror each other in a lot of ways. And so we've been, you know, prior to running this business, very conservative with our, uh, financials personally, which lends itself to just operating a clean, uh, optimized business.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Well, it's a, I've referenced this before in a podcast, but I think it's a good time to do it again. Uh, I listened to a podcast, I, I mean, it was like six or seven years ago, but the gentleman was talking about. In life, you know, kind of the first half of your life is [00:32:00] you're building the vessel and then the second half of the life, if you build that vessel, well the second half of your life is filling that vessel.

Right? And and it really, um, it resonated with me because I think. A lot of us have our buddies, our friends that are corporate, uh, since they graduated undergrad and they just went into corporate careers. And for them the vessel is like family and house, early house, get a house early, uh, 401k only. You know, like it's a.

It's, it's looks different for us a as chiropractors. And then if you decide to, to, uh, you know, own your own practice at some point it's a whole lot, it looks a lot different than your friend that is the, the corporate employee. And so you, uh, you may start behind, right? Like you might be 26 years old when you graduate school versus 22, like your friends, and then there's a lot of other things going on, but when you.

Decide, you know, get, whether it's get married, have kids, that's part of the vessel. Buying a house that's part of the vessel [00:33:00] you're building, opening up your own practice and doing all that. Uh, you know, for me, I didn't, I didn't buy my first house till I was 40, but I did buy my office real estate at 33.

And to me, that was part of the vessel I was trying to build professionally. And if you do it, sometimes it looks like. You're 40, 40 years old and you're like, wow, I just now feel like I can really put some gasoline on this. And, but from 40 to 60, the, if you do, if you build the vessel right from 40 to 60, you're earning potential there.

In your asset building, there can be so exponential that you just. Bypass all your corporate friends that are just kind of saving for 401k and hoping that they can retire at some point. And that's where that delayed gratification goes. That's where instead of buying the new car, you're, you're, you're moving into the new office space and instead of buying the watch, you're buying the shockwave, [00:34:00] uh, you know, like it's certain things like that.

You have to make that decision because then. You're gonna really be able to bear fruit that second half there.

Steven Reinlie: Well, it's, it goes back to, you know, the Rich Dad Poor Dad book. Yeah. That mentality. You know, if, let's say my monthly nut to crack is 10 K for the lifestyle we wanna live.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Steven Reinlie: You know, if, if I only have a few minor assets that are making a few hundred bucks a month and a little 401k here and a little of this and a little of that, like.

Okay, cool. You know, like I can't sustain my lifestyle where my money works for me. This business, and the reason why I want to build a business is 'cause I want the business to be that asset. It's just, it is my 401k. It's where everything's going. That's the goal. Now we may find out 10 or 15 years from now.

That didn't work out. That is the cost of doing business. But the same is true for a 401k or a Roth IRA. I mean, just ask some of those people several years ago that were retiring and they're like, oh crap, the market tanked. What do I do now? Or inflation is going crazy. [00:35:00] Like, do I cash out? Do I ride the inflation bug?

Should I work a few more years? So there's nothing certain in this world. I do know I have. A lot more control over this asset than I do just sticking it in, in ETF and hoping that I pick the right handful of 'em and trusting that, you know, every seven or eight years it's gonna, on average go up and double or whatever.

But at the end of the day, um, so much of this boils back to. Being satisfied in your person and finding mm-hmm. Purpose and why are we on this planet and what are we trying to do? And it can change and it can fluctuate. But where I know right now I'm in my late thirties and have kids, you know, those existential questions can wait for a little while.

Right now it's put head down and grind and work hard, and that's where we're at.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And now you're at that point where you'll be able to, you know, you're, you're building the golden goose essentially. And then you'll be able to take profits and do what you will with it. One, one thing that was fascinating, we, we had [00:36:00] just gotten back from our West Mastermind and we kind of went around the room 'cause it was the first meeting for the year and, uh, introducing some people and some of the unique things that they have going on.

And, you know, we have one member that. Uh, has done well in practice and now owns like seven, uh, waxing salon or parts of waxing salons. He's invested in that. We got another one that owns a basement. Uh, I don't even, I don't, we don't have basements of Florida, so I never even know what it is, but it's like base basement proofing company.

We had about six members that have investments going on in other types of, of businesses, or they own their. Practice real estate. And so every time you're writing that mortgage check to your real estate, that's, that's for savings and, and it's exciting when you get there, that's where it becomes exponential.

'cause not only do you get to pay yourself more and you, you know, max out your 401k or your business and that type of stuff, but then you take profits and you can either reinvest it into your business to pay yourself more or you reinvested in other things and [00:37:00] become a little bit of an investor. Which to your point on the Rich Dad, poor dad, I guess that's the, uh.

That's the holy grail of the development. What is it? Uh, job is, is stage one, I think. Then owning a job is stage two, and then owning a business is stage three, and then being an investor is stage four. Is that right?

Steven Reinlie: Pretty much. Yeah. So I mean, we know right now we have our highest nut to crack and it's only gonna continue to expand.

Like this isn't ultimately the nut we're looking for, but this is the, uh, investment vehicle that we are investing in. Mm-hmm. And right now it's a lot of sweat equity, um, and over, and some of it is financial for sure, but the business has been able to pay for the business so far. Yeah. Which has been great.

You know, my seed money from my person. Was probably what, let's call it the last six years of practice. I mean, this is my 15 year, 15th year of practice. But the last six or seven years were like, things started to click and I started to understand mm-hmm what game I was playing. Um, [00:38:00] and so there was a lot of that.

That was. Seed money, if you want to call it that way, those relationships. But the seed money to start my business was a few thousand bucks. Yeah. I mean it was, I had a portable table and you know, like no down payments on anything. They're all handshake agreements, which I don't recommend, but you got to judge your relationships too.

Some of those, I just wasn't sure if I pushed a hard paper copy. If they're gonna be like, nah, take a hike. I'm not really interested. Like I'm not recommending that. But you have to have some. You, you, you need a little bit of luck. I definitely had some of that, but some of that was already built in. And then being really, really patient and smart with your money and keeping your, what is my focus?

Okay? Mm-hmm. What is I need to get my own space 'cause my biggest threat to my business right now. Mm-hmm. Is anybody could say, Hey, get out. We have another use for that room. So, okay, cool. Now we've gotten to that part. Now my biggest threat is just making sure that I can continue to expand my margins, not because I'm trying to retire early.

It's [00:39:00] so I can sustain growing this business in a way that. The business better for the people that we serve. Mm-hmm. Which I know is a, a point that you've talked about before, which is it's not evil to make money. Um, we need those things to become better clinicians so you can have better tools so you have some space in your mind where you're not stressed constantly and you're not focused on the thing that's in front of you.

And so that's where we're at right now, is improving how this clinic operates.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Love it. And I think you're at the tipping point here soon, which is exciting to, to see. And so, um. A LA just last question. Like what, you know, the, speaking to the audience, if someone is either, uh, looking to maybe open up their own practice or they own their own practice, but they just really haven't necessarily hit that tipping point there, what would you recommend for them?

Or what would you, what would you say? What kind of advice do you have for them?

Steven Reinlie: I have two big pieces of advice. Um, and I say this to my boys all the time. I've got a 10-year-old and a 7-year-old. We have a rule the first week of school that [00:40:00] their job is to go meet three new people. Mm-hmm. Okay. We are trying to develop the skill of connecting with people.

Okay. So if you struggle with that, then you need to work on it. Mm-hmm. And I am left-brained really good at taking tests. It pissed me off when our dean at Parker said, straight A, students tend to struggle in practice 'cause they don't connect with people and then they go to research. And I was like, bullshit.

Uh, it just, I still remember that it bothers me to this day. So if you don't know how to make relationships, I'm here to tell you it's a hundred percent learnable skill. You just have to show up and care and be curious, which is, what is that the art of? What's that famous book that was written?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Is it

Steven Reinlie: the,

Dr. Kevin Christie: the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People?

Steven Reinlie: It's the same author, but it's like, yeah, it's one of those, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I read it and I was like, cool. Okay. So be curious and actually care. So like that, that is vitally important and if you can't do that, then stay where you're at. Um, the [00:41:00] other piece is get serious about knowing where your money goes.

Yeah. 'cause your business will stress you the heck out no matter what. And finances are half the reason why marriages fail. And finances, I would have to be really certain, I'm not an expert, but it would be the biggest reason why a business fails. And a lot of it isn't because you can't make money is 'cause you don't know how to manage it.

And um, I'm really, really a big stickler for where our dollars going. How are we best utilizing them? Not in a, uh, miser kind of way, but because they need to have purpose and those two things, I think give you a good chance.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, I love it. I think is it win friends and influence people.

Steven Reinlie: That's the one.

Yep.

Dr. Kevin Christie: All right. Good. Yep. And then, yeah, I just want to, you know, lastly, commend you also, like you're a very capable person, um, but you haven't tried doing this alone and you knew you had to. Kind of take on some coaching to just [00:42:00] even sometimes be a sounding board. And so I, I think more people need to consider having someone in their corner to help out with it because it's, uh, never easy.

Even if you are, uh, you got a good strategy and, and, and, and the wherewithal to do it, it's, it's good to have someone to help you out.

Steven Reinlie: Yeah, I mean, when I took my associate job, I still remember the last little bit of an interview, um, yeah. At dinner, and they're like, well, why do you want to be an associate?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Steven Reinlie: And I said, I want exponential clinical growth. I care less about the money. Right now I care more about getting good at my job and my craft. Mm-hmm. And that was in line with when we had our first dialogue, I was like, look, I already know I'm gonna have bumps in the road. I'd prefer not to pay for them two and three times.

I'd rather just pay up front a little bit and sign up for some coaching. Know that I'm doing this right. Uh, and right is a broad term. There's different rights of course, but mm-hmm. Um, you know, I have mentors in my life. My, like I said, my dad's a previous entrepreneur. I've got both [00:43:00] my, uh, college roommates are, were entrepreneur or entrepreneurs now.

So I have resources and it's good to have different angles. Mm-hmm. But it's also have someone that's been in the trenches and that understands some of the nuance. Because you know, some of these buddies, they might run a IT company and they don't know the first thing about like clinic efficiency and structure.

Now they know efficiency for their business, and it's my job to play. Interpreter, right. But being able to talk to somebody like you and point me in certain directions, that just shortcuts me and it's, for me, it made the most sense to invest the money to take those shortcuts, then bump my head and learn from hard knocks.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I know it is hard for. Some, you know, that are listening is, is I kind of similar. I, I spent about five years before I opened my own practice and I was all in on the clinical and I really wanted to do that and I, I really want to make sure chiropractors understand is like, you gotta get good clinically.

I think there's this weird dichotomy where we get some chiropractors that [00:44:00] go all in clinically and forever and then never actually learn the business side of it and they struggle and then you get some that. Don't ever get good clinically and then try to put lipstick on a pig with tactics and strategies.

And that's not a, that's kind of house of cards. I, what I've found, and, and I've seen this now over the years, is the ones that have really come out and, and learned the clinical and mastered that within reason over the first stages of their career. And also are not afraid to realize I gotta also learn the business side.

I think marrying those two things is where you really have sustainable, long-term growth, and your patients, uh, are, are all the better for it, right?

Steven Reinlie: Absolutely. I mean, so much of this is self-discovery and I know from, I read the book. To sell as human. That was a big pivot point for me. Mm-hmm. In understanding, I had to learn how I needed to sell.

And you're either in a product business or you're in a [00:45:00] service business. Yeah. And chiropractors are no different than copy salesman, car salesman or whatever. Uh, orthopedic surgeons. We are selling that. We have a solution and then you need to trust us and we can help you. Right. And so for me. I know how I sell is I sell from a place of confidence and conviction.

So I needed to improve my clinical chops and I needed to understand that I've seen this 6, 12, 15, 25 times before and yeah, you're having a shit day with your disc, but like it's going to pass and I need to be able to say that because you're gonna get found out real quick. Yeah. And so that I feel like.

Was really helpful for me. That way I could do the business part because I can just do the clinical part. The business part is, is hard enough.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Yeah. So, well, Steven, this is great, man. I really appreciate your insights on this and it's been excited to be, uh, kind of having a, a, a, a front row seat to the, to the growth and excited about this, uh, next stage for you.

Steven Reinlie: Yeah. I appreciate [00:46:00] you having me on and, uh, look forward to it in the future.

EPISODE 466: The Barriers for Patients

Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm gonna bring you a solo episode and I'm gonna talk about some of the different barriers that you may be putting up in your clinic. Uh, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not, or sometimes. You are willing to, uh, have the exchange of what that may be, but there are certain things that are barriers for patients.

And we had once, uh, done a whole, uh, coaching lesson, I think we did on the Mastermind as well, where we talked about the friction-free, free patient experience and everything from new patients to existing patients to inactive patients. Uh, what would it look like theoretically to have a friction-free patient experience?

You know, there's things like having online scheduling, having the phones answered quickly, and getting back to them. Being able to schedule new, new patients within 48 [00:01:00] hours. You know, making sure your social media is monitored for direct messages. Online paperwork. We kind of ran through this whole thing, right?

Just, you know, short wait times, uh, treatment plan handouts and chiro up reports. We, you know, having payments stored on file. There's a lot of things that could really help smooth out that process. 'cause frankly, in healthcare, uh, it's, it's very, very friction full as, as we can imagine. Uh, but then when, you know, you design your practice and some of your systems and processes and how you do things, um, some of them can be, can be barriers.

And that's, uh, not uncommon. It's not uncommon. But again, we're gonna roll through these and some of them. You're gonna be okay with, and, you know, there's an exchange to that and I, we've done this in our clinic and I'll, I'll outline, uh, some of that, right? Um, but some of the barriers, I'll just kind of go down a list and, and, [00:02:00] and, and briefly chat about it.

Obviously, if you're out of network with insurances, that's gonna be a barrier for a lot of people, right? So if you're in network with every insurance, there possibly is. You've removed that barrier and you are more than likely the most affordable option they have. And so you've, for the most part, taking a lot of the finances out of it, right?

You're, you're in network with all the insurances because frankly, when you're out of network, you might get, you know, 10 people that want to be new patients, and sometimes you don't even know. That they don't become a patient of yours because of this, but you might, let's say you have 10 call and you know, they, they inquire about being, you know, a contracted provider with their insurance.

And you're not, and you know, maybe seven of them become new patients, or six of them do. And so you've lost three or four because of that. Whereas [00:03:00] if you were in net worth insurance, they would've more than likely scheduled. Those are the ones that call, uh, there's quite a few that might find you online.

Uh, you know, Google or a friend refers and the first thing they do is look to see if you're in network worth insurance and you're not. So they don't even bother calling. So those are kind of the silent ones you lose. Right. So, and, and, and I'm not. Saying it's right or wrong, my clinic is, is outta network.

Uh, and, and I knew that I used to be a network. I went outta network. I knew that was gonna be a barrier for some, and I've lived it and, and we've been okay with it. Um, but it is a barrier. Uh, and I think we all know that that's one of the bigger barriers. Okay. Another, you know, barrier is, and we recently did this, but for a long time we were outta network with insurances, but we billed the out-of-network insurance for the patient.

Um, and we no longer do that. I think it was a couple years ago we stopped doing that. And so we, we, we don't bill the out-of-network insurance now, we'll give them a super bill if they request and they can submit it, [00:04:00] but we took that layer out. Okay. That one didn't really seem to bother anybody there.

Right. Uh, but that is, that is another barrier obviously. Um, your clinic hours, right? Are your clinic hours designed more for you than for what your patients are? Right? If you, you might work in a particular area where if you had, you know, 7:00 AM start hours, a few days a week, that would be filled early and you'd see more people, but you're not a morning person and so you start at, I don't know, 9:00 AM it's fine, right?

Uh, you could be at an area where people won't need appointments till 7:00 PM but you don't want to get home too late. And again, totally fine. But have you developed clinic hours that are more conducive to patients, or are your clinic hours putting up barriers and how much of that can you sustain? You know, some people do Saturday morning hours.

That's opens up a whole. World of visits for in a particular month, right? You get people [00:05:00] that might see 10 people on a Saturday, and you do that four times a month. That's 40, uh, appointments. And how many of those would've come in on Friday if you didn't have Saturday? Like, there's gonna be a certain amount that would've, uh, come in anyway, but a certain amount that wouldn't.

And you gotta figure that out. But clinic hours can be a barrier. Okay? Um. You know, we talked about being outta network or in-network and, and so your cash rates, you know, some people, the cash rates are too high, and that's a barrier. I'm all for not being commoditized. I'm all for, for, as you know, charging what you, uh, are worth.

But there's a lot that goes into being able to have high cash rates and enough people seeing the value and being willing to pay that in your schedule, being. Close to full for the week. Uh, there's this kind of thing going on where, uh, a lot of rehab chiros are, are charging a [00:06:00] lot of money, uh, per hour, like four or $500 an hour, which.

You know, there's a, I, I love when people can do that. I've, I've had James Spencer on my podcast some years ago. He's someone that built up to that, but he's someone that's built up quite an expertise to get there. Sometimes people are put in the cart before the horse and the cash rates are not indicative of what the public perception is of their.

Particular skillset. And so yeah, they might, the patients they are getting are paying a lot, but they only see 12 people in a week. And it's not enough money, uh, to build a, a clinic and a team there. And so you have to, uh, you know, you have to evaluate that. Are, are your cash rates too high for the time being?

Do you need to build up your expertise over some time? Do you have to be in high demand? Like do you have to become. James Spencer or Greg Rose or uh, you know, Brett Winchester, something like that where, yeah, people will pay it 'cause they see the value, but, uh, I, I love higher cash rates, but it can be a barrier for some [00:07:00] patients, right.

Now your patient's schedule availability, like I treat patients twice a week. Um, that's a little bit of a barrier. There's no doubt about it. And so it's not necessarily our clinic hours are a barrier, it's just my particular patient's schedule availability. Or are you so busy that a patient calls and you can't see 'em for two weeks, or you're trying to reschedule a patient, you know, they come in on Monday and you gotta get 'em in another time this week, and your patient, you're already filled up.

And so there's a barrier, or you just have so much, have so few availabilities on your schedule that the patient's like, yeah, I would, I'd come in one more time this week for my care, but you only have Thursday at 5:00 PM available, and I can't do that. And so now they're missing appointments, right? And so your availability can be a barrier as well.

I think oftentimes the 30 and 60 minute appointments is a barrier. Time is a barrier. Uh, there's a, again, this perception that time equals results [00:08:00] and in some cases it does, some types of patients it does. Uh, you, if you spend too little time, it, it packs it for sure. But if you pulled. A hundred people and, and if the results were the same, would they rather come in for 20 minutes or 30 minutes or 60 minutes?

The vast majority would like to come in for 20 to 30 minutes. Now, I think we've equated people being okay with 60 minute appointments with physical therapy, but a lot of those physical therapy patients are post-surgical, and that's an event in their life that they know they have to take serious for.

Eight weeks or whatever, right? Three months and they'll be done. They, you know, had ACL reconstruction, but a lot of people don't want to spend 60 minutes twice a week at a chiropractor's office. There's some that do for sure. It's a select audience. Um, but time can be a barrier. So keep that in mind. Time too much time can be a barrier.

Uh, [00:09:00] compliance. I have a saying that compliance is the thief of joy. And having your office be compliant in everything, we have to be compliant in HIPAA and all the things and, and billing and, and all that can be challenging, right? Um, avoiding dual fee schedules and, but being able to. Bill Cash patient this, but the insurance that, um, you know, we've recently implemented Chiro Health USA for that reason.

'cause we, even though we're cash base, we do have auto and we have, uh, Medicare and we just wanna make sure we're compliant. So we use Chiro Armor for our compliance training and, and, uh, and making sure we're compliant. And then we implemented Chusa. For that. Uh, but getting people to sign up for Chusa, you know, we, there's a lot of com communication that goes around that and, you know, and you gotta make sure it doesn't become a barrier, but having your clinic fully compliant can be a barrier for some, right.[00:10:00]

Uh, and that is a reality. But, uh, so far, so good on implementing. Which has been cool and it's allowed us to feel good about how we're billing our personal injury and our cash and doing everything compliant. And overall, patients have been very, um, accepting of that. Right. Next is not having online scheduling that is a barrier for some people.

I don't think it's a, a huge one, but it is a barrier. I got, I'm halfway there. I got a lot of barriers. So there's a lot of barriers here. And again, the point of this is not to say you shouldn't be doing some of these, or you shouldn't have some of these, just letting you know that they can be a barrier and.

What my recommendation is, I'll kind of give a little halftime here, a little halftime pep rally or halftime speech is to overcome some of these barriers, you need to layer on really good communication. You as the doctor and your team has to have [00:11:00] really good communication with patients, right? If you're adding over insurances, there has to be good communication on why it's still.

Valuable for that patient to come in and pay cash rates if you're, you know, trying to sell cash packages. 'cause you're a cash practice. You have to have good communication around that. If you're implementing Chiro USA, you have to have good communication around that. Right. If you have high cash rates, you better have good communication with the patient and report findings and treatment planning and visit the visit and, and all that type of stuff.

You, you can overcome some of these with a world class experience for the patient and that world class experience is gonna be your clinical chops. You gotta have that, which is again, I think was part of the struggle with some of the early dcs trying to do certain things. Like huge cash rates and stuff like that is 'cause they don't frankly have the, they're not a lot of times great enough clinically to warrant that yet to get [00:12:00] there.

You'll get there, but it's just not yet. Um, so you have to have that world class experience. You clinical chops, you gotta, you gotta be good. You gotta be great, alright. Your communication with the patient has to be really good. Your communication, uh, with the team and the team, communication with the patient has to be really good.

Okay. So you gotta have a nice office and you gotta have all those things to be able to, to warrant some of this. You have to be in demand. 'cause they have options. When you put up a lot of barriers, there's other options. If, if you're in high demand or your clinic is, people will accept the barriers because they know the values there.

Okay? Uh, another barrier is limited social media and Google presence. Okay? If people can't find you, that is a barrier. Uh, if patients are being sold packages or payment plans, which I'm for reasonable packages, you know, um, nothing crazy. We sell very reasonable treatment packages and payment [00:13:00] plans. You, you, you know that you need to have communication around that.

But some, some chiropractors where it's almost like you have to buy a package or a payment plan. That can be a, a barrier, uh, requiring credit card or deposit on file for new patients. I have some clinics that do this and they actually do well with it, and it works well for them. They're in high demand, they've got great clinics.

They're weeding out the no show. Nothing worse than a patient that doesn't show up or late cancels. So, but that is a barrier. There's gonna be some people that aren't gonna do it, but that is, um, to offset that. Late cancellation fee, um, that can frustrate some people, but it can also weed out the flakes, which I totally get.

But again, just keep in mind that if you do that, it'll be a barrier for some people. But it can def, you know, if you do this right, if you work through [00:14:00] this and you build up your expertise and you, and you become high demand and you do a great job and you have a remarkable experience. You can start adding some of these things and you can really curate the patient base you want, that you like, you like 90% of your patients, so like a lot of chiropractors hate half their patient base.

You get frustrated. But if you do a great job, you can, you can do this and you can really cultivate the patient base you want and use some of these barriers to do that. Right. Um, poor communication capabilities with your office, right? Patients. Can't ever get ahold of you and leave messages and they don't get called back.

They, there's not a, a way, you know, like maybe there's no two way texting capabilities. There's no online scheduling. Um, maybe the e you, you offer your email address, your clinic email address on your website or whatever, and, but you don't answer the emails. Um, maybe you do a lot of Instagram stuff, but no one's monitoring your direct [00:15:00] messages and people are messaging you through there for appointments.

Um, so those are all. All examples of barriers of poor communication capabilities with your office, right? Um, bad location. Parking. No parking. That can be a barrier for some, uh, some places of business. If I know that parking's impossible or it's hard to get to, I, I don't even go, uh, check that out. Long wait times.

Right. Do people have to wait in your waiting room for for too long? That's a barrier for a lot of people. It's not too bad for chiropractors in general, but it's a, it is a barrier. Do you offer very limited treatment options, right? You only offer, uh, maybe one or two things. That's gonna be a barrier for some, right?

Um, but it could also be great. Like if you're just world class palpation and adjusting, that's what you offer and you do it in an evidence-based way, you'll probably be fine. You'd be really fine. But there's gonna be some patients that are looking for more and that's fine. Maybe you have [00:16:00] referral system for, uh.

If they're looking for rehab, you send 'em to a, a good rehab, chiro or pt. Uh, if they're looking for dry needling, you send 'em to dry needling. If they're looking for shockwave, you send 'em, you have people around your, in your town that you're referred to, right. Um, unwelcome, I'm sorry, unwelcoming, dirty, outdated, and uncomfortable waiting treatment rooms.

Right. Just not a good. Environment. That's a barrier. Okay? Maybe it's an unfriendly, rushed or unprofessional front desk or support staff. That is a barrier. You want to get that fixed, lengthy, or intimidating. New patient paperwork and initial exam without clear explanations. Something that we keep on looking at.

We got a lot. We have online paperwork and we got a fair amount of it. It's again, when you become compliant, um, it adds, it adds things for them to sign. Uh, so we audit that every so often. Um, maybe recommended high [00:17:00] visit frequency, um, could feel overwhelming or salesy, right? Um, or obviously long duration.

That's where, you know, if you're trying to do six month care plans, it takes such a high level of sales. To do that because you're overcoming massive barriers to that and you have to sell, right? Like the higher the barriers in certain cases, whether it's money or duration of care, uh, it's gonna take, uh, more sales to do that, right.

So those are my list of barriers that you wanna look at when you're teasing out what your patient experiences and what your system and processes are. You know, uh, they're, you know, think about like the joint right one. I would say that. If I had to sum up the business model for the joint is they've removed every barrier possible.

Right. And even though they're not in network insurances, they're [00:18:00] so cheap that they're, they're actually cheaper than most people copay. So they're like, we're not gonna do the insurance model, but we're gonna make it cheaper than insurance. And so they've, they've literally removed every barrier, right?

They, they may, I've talked to people with the joint. They only pick certain locations where they'll open up a joint. There's gotta be a certain amount of traffic. It's gotta be easy to get to plenty of parking, nice space. They, you can walk in and get adjusted. It's super cheap. It's, I mean, it's just, they easiest thing in the world.

Not saying it's good, but you can tell their business model was to put, to knock down all the barriers. And, um, and walking in and being able to get it adjusted whenever you want. That's a big barrier for some people. Right. Um, so just understand that. And when you lay out some of these things that we talked about today, um, is it a barrier that your clinic can overcome?

Do you have too many barriers in this stage of your clinic growth? Right. Uh, a lot of times [00:19:00] practices add barriers as they go. And that works out well. That's what we essentially have done. We're 16 years into this particular practice. I've been practicing for 21, and it was a slow addition of barriers and overcoming one and adding the next overcoming one and adding the next, sometimes adding one and say, you know what?

It's a little bit too big of a barrier. Let's remove that. And, uh, and see how it goes for you. So I hope that was helpful. Um, one of the things we try to do with our clients is make sure they have a great patient experience, friction free as much as possible, and if they're gonna add barriers or do we need to remove barriers, we help work through some of the strategy around that.

So I hope this is helpful. Do an audit of yourself. Again, a lot of these I said, I'm not saying don't do. Just understand that it can be a barrier to some patients or a lot of patients, and you gotta know what you're getting into.

EPISODE 467: Patient Communication in the Age of A.I. with Chris Chippendale DC

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] All right. Excited to have Chris Dale back on our, uh, podcast. We have him on. Pretty, uh, pretty frequent here because I, I like to revisit with certain guests where I think that the, the topic is very, very expansive and can continue to evolve and also is timeless. I think that's a unique thing with certain topics, and then also just the, the wisdom that he brings to our podcast to, around this topic of.

Patient communication, which would be a subtopic of, uh, overall patient experience. Uh, so Chris, what's new in your world?

Chris Chippendale: Thank you. Yeah. Good to chat again. Um. So yeah, we are, uh, we've just been looking at a couple of changes in the clinic recently. Um, so our sister clinic, we've got somebody going on maternity leave soon.

So we've been looking at, um, getting a couple of people in there to help cover and, um, and really just kind of building up the team that, that we have there. So I've been doing quite a bit of training with them around, um, [00:01:00] patient experience. We, um, that we had a group, we got both clinics together for an afternoon, for a training afternoon recently.

And, and this was, the entire focus was right. You know, what are we doing well? And I will say I'm very proud of my team. They do an excellent job looking at the things we're doing well, but then looking at the things that we could just take up to that next level, um,

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah,

Chris Chippendale: I'm sure we're gonna get into it, but I, I actually believe that this year and the next couple of years, that patient experience is gonna become even more important.

And I think it's gonna become an even bigger differentiator for, for clinics. And, you know, there's, we've got more clinics in our area now, you know. There's co. There's more competition around there and I'm confident with where we're at, but I'm always looking to make sure we don't just get comfortable and rest on our laurels.

I wanna make sure we're set up in our game where I can and just giving patients the best service we can.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, you used the word even like, even better and even more important. I, I've learned to, to use that word a lot more. It's a, it's a really good word. I actually, one of my first podcasts nine years ago with Joel Weldon, uh, he's a, I [00:02:00] guess a Hall of Fame public speaker.

And in that episode he talked about the importance of the word even, uh, you know, and he used it as reference of like, um, yeah. You know, your patient might want to get better, but they're already doing really well. We can get you even better. Right? And he talked about that in different things is where, uh, that word helps.

Because if you went to your team and said, look, we gotta get better at. Patient communication or we gotta get better at this, they automatically will say, whoa, we must be doing a shitty job. Yeah. When you use, we gotta get even better. Just means, look, we're doing great. We're we're good, but we can get even better.

Right. I love, I love the nuances of words.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah. It's that, that little hint of that growth mindset, isn't it?

Dr. Kevin Christie: It is. Exactly. And that's where I think it's cool that you're continuing with that, with your team. And I know that's something that, uh, you and I are, are gonna be in London, uh, June 20th around the patient experience.

And you're gonna be doing half of it, and [00:03:00] I'm gonna be doing half of it. And, and it's one of those things where the, those that are attending. Or we'll be attending is, uh, we're not saying you, you have a bad patient experience. Uh, we're just trying to get your patient experience even better. And I think today's day and age, uh, with, uh, what we're gonna kind of talk a little bit about today as a backdrop of ai.

This isn't gonna be an AI episode and using. For the patient experience per se. But there are gonna be some things where AI does help, but I think there's gonna be a lot of, um, situations where people are gonna be yearning and looking for a little bit more human connection and, and having really good communication around it.

So what are some of your just initial thoughts before we dialogue this out on, you know, where AI is going to, uh, put us. In the patient experience and what that's gonna mean for the humans we still have in our practice.

Chris Chippendale: Hmm. I mean, I, I've been keeping an eye on the AI stuff for a while. I kind of, [00:04:00] couple of years ago, I started diving into it and seeing what it was about, but I remember making a prediction.

18 months ago in, and this is more to do with the coaching space that I said, look, looking at what this is gonna be able to do, it's now, it was just about to do lifelike photos. Then, um, I remember putting this up on my page saying, you are gonna see, uh, an absolute flood of very amateur coaches using AI to make themselves look like they're experts.

Yes. Um, and it's gonna get harder and harder to tell who's the genuine. Study and who's just using AI to look really good when they don't know a huge amount. And, and lo and behold, I'm sure you're seeing the same now, loads of just very generic AI content being put out there. Um, and our patients are seeing the same thing as well.

I think that it's already changing how we, I mean, you know, a lot of us now have this experience of reading an email going, I don't think you wrote this email. I think you used chat cpt.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Chris Chippendale: Um. And there's, there's elements to that that are good. You know, I think it's, it's really, it's not something that I, I turn my nose up at.

I think you can use it to really help come up with great ideas. [00:05:00] I think using it in communication to sort of go, I'm trying to say this thing, how do I get this idea across? I don't want it to be misunderstood. I think it can be really good for that as well. Um, and I know there's quite a lot of chiropractors out who use it for like, you know, creating social media posts, getting a copy on their website, nurture emails, newsletters.

I think it can be good for that kind of thing, but I think what it's doing is it's basically becoming the new standard and you are seeing online some, some groups of people really rebelling against that. I mean, I didn't realize how anti AI some people would be, um, yeah. When this started, but, but I, I kind of, I almost noticed it myself when I, when I see a post on social media come up and I can see it's written by, by ai.

Part of my brain just goes, uh, like I kind of, even if I think the content, I'll sometimes read it and go, this is some really good content, but part of my brain's already switched off. And I do think that's gonna be happening with, with patients in our communities as well, that if they get a little sniff of, this [00:06:00] seems about artificial, it, it can risk turning some people off.

Um, but the other side is that I think it's, it's really, it's changing the expectation that people have in that. It used to be, you know, you, you get some people who are excellent communicators, some who were pretty good, and some who weren't that great and the weren't that great ones could, you know, unless they were really bad, could maybe get by, they'd struggle a bit more, it wouldn't work as well.

Um, but what AI is doing now is it's, it is raising the acceptable standards to, if you can't communicate at least as well as an AI generated version can yeah, then you're gonna be seen as really bad. Because nearly everyone's gonna be doing that as a standard, so I think it's gonna really raise the baseline.

But then in a sense, what I suspect people are gonna do is they're gonna start looking for what are the human signals. Um, I saw somebody a little while ago said they started deliberately keeping typos in their posts. 'cause when someone sees as a typo, they're like, oh, you wrote this? Okay.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. That's,

Chris Chippendale: that's great.

And I think it's little signals like that that can be really powerful to indicate to [00:07:00] patients. We are not just this AI generated kind of automated online. So, I mean, I know that it's a personal relationship with the, with the patient when they come to see us, but. You know, they're, they're not just going, I'm gonna click on it.

I'm gonna book online and I'm gonna get an automated email and some automated this or that. Yeah, for chiropractic especially that personal connection's huge. It's really, really valuable for patients. And I think that the AI side, it's, there's certainly some risks if it's not used well, but I think it also is creating a lot of new opportunities for how we can, we can give that to patients and how we can stand that to our community as well, both as chiropractors compared to other professionals, but also, you know, compared to other chiropractors in your area as well.

If there's, if there's quality clinic.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. On the, on the flip side, I, I listened to a podcast that it's all about AI and technology and all that, and they actually were talking about the idea is our, our consulting services gonna go away because of ai. And one guy, his argument is like, no. 'cause he, in his saying was, was like in the land of the blind, the one eye.

Man is king. [00:08:00] And so it kind of saying, it's like there's gonna be a lot of confusion out there and there's gonna be a lot of information out there. And so if, if you can bring just even, you know, the human element to it, uh, you, you can be the king there. And I think from a chiropractic practice standpoint, um, people are going to want to, um.

I, let me kind of reframe it a little bit. I think one of the things that is gonna happen if is historically, I think as doctors, we have been very distracted, right? We have a lot on our plate. We have a lot of things, whether it's, we have this team meeting, I gotta make this payroll, I gotta get these notes done.

And so sometimes a lot of chiropractors go in. To their patient encounters pretty distracted. And so their, so their level of communication and listening, um, is distracted and not great. And so one of the things I keep on thinking and, and [00:09:00] hoping for is that, um, whether it's for me in practice or for me in life or for me, an MCM is if I can have AI simplify a lot of the things that aren't the human to human part, it will free me up.

Potentially to be less distracted and have a lot more things being done to where I can go into that human to human encounter. Um, a lot less distracted and communicate even better. Do you have any thoughts on, on that as a potential?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, definitely. So thi this is one area that I've been using in my practice, um, pretty regularly actually for the last year, is, um, is AI note taking.

So, you know, we use Heidi. I know there's other ones out there. I know Jane app. Um, theirs doesn't work in the UK yet, but they're bringing that as well. And I mean, I will say it's not perfect. Um mm-hmm. It, you definitely have to check the notes and for that reason I don't use it with my regular treatments.

I've tried it. I find I've got my macro sorted. I know how I do my notes. I find it [00:10:00] quicker and easier to do that than to get the AI generated ones and then read through and check them and, and tweak them as well. But for my new patient encounters, it's great 'cause I, I never write anything now. That I will basically just check with the basic start.

Do you mind if I, you know, take some voice notes today there go, that's fine. And then I can just sit and, and discuss with them and I'll know that between what I'll happen to remember and what the AI scribe will load down. Mm-hmm. We'll, we'll have a good record there as well. So I'm not having to spend this time writing things down and, you know, whenever you're writing something, you're not present with the patient.

And I would used to try and scribble it down quickly and have to work out what my weird, wacky hieroglyphics to try to say later on. So I really like that, but I can just sit and have a conversation with them. Um, and that is something that, exactly like you say, it's made things, um, I'm, I'm more present and that human interaction is much better than it would be if it was just me trying to make notes and things like that.

So I really like it for that. Um, I know some people who use it for all of their appointments. It just, the, [00:11:00] the current state of the tech is a bit too laborious to me. So I think you do have to pick and choose. Um, I've certainly had experiences where I've thought, oh, AI could really help with this. I've spent several hours on it.

I've got to the end and gone. I didn't really help that much and I've wasted afternoon. Yeah, yeah. Playing around with it. So I think being judicious with that helps as well. But definitely if it can free up things so we have more of that, that personal human time with patients, I think that's really valuable.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, and then even sometimes, like on the patient experience that it could be utilized for. I just had a real life example. It was kind of like a. A multipart thing that it came to fruition with. But in our West Mastermind, uh, uh, Jared Bludo, one of our uh, members, he had brought up this really good idea.

And I mentioned on a podcast where, you know, when you're talking to a patient, um, a lot of times we. We don't talk about tissue healing and, and what the standards are. And he used ankle sprain as an example of like, okay, sprain an ankle, grade two ankle sprain. It's, you know, the, the literature says it's six to eight weeks for tissue healing recovery.

My goal in this treatment plan [00:12:00] is to speed that up to four to six weeks. So shave some time off it. Uh, but you might. Get to a point early on where you're out of pain, but it doesn't mean the tissue's healed yet. That's why we gotta keep on making sure we do the rehab and the treatment, even when the pain is gone, we gotta make sure that the function is restored and so he's gone and understood the different tissue healing legs for different injuries, whether it's cervical whiplash or it's disc issue in a low back or whatever.

And uses that to communicate with the patient really well on the expectation of that treatment plan and why we need to see you for whatever, right? Uh, and it's more than just pain. It's also full recovery of the, of the tissue. And that was, I was like, wow, that's a great idea. I'm gonna start doing that.

So that, I talked to, uh, one of our doctors here about it, and then he went into ai. Looked up the top 10 conditions that chiropractors treat, what the typical literature says on tissue healing time, and he's equipped himself with that to go into the report of findings, to have that conversation. And then if it's a condition that is [00:13:00] not on there, he, he can just, or I can just go right to AI and look at it and have it handy.

As part and, and, and it helps make my communication a lot easier, whereas pre ai, I may not have put in the effort and time to do all like the searching for what those would be. And so this was an example where the patient sees the front stage of wow, that doctor communicated that well to me and understood what the tissue healing length was.

And it makes a lot of sense for me and didn't necessarily see the backstage part of it, which was AI helping in that part. So I think. That's a long-winded story of saying, I think if we use AI a lot in the backstage, it'll free us up to be really effective in communicating on the, on the front stage.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, definitely. And I think there's even certain situations where you can, it helps for the patient to know that AI is in the backstage. There, there's, I mean, 'cause they're looking a lot at ai, you know, in the medical field, particularly around diagnosis. And the current research seems to basically suggest that [00:14:00] patients like a diagnosis that has arrived at using AI but checked and delivered by a human.

Like they, they want to hear the doctor say, look, our fancy AI thinks you have this. I happen to agree.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Chris Chippendale: And you know, we're not really, I don't think in the MSK world it's gonna go, I don't see AI being able to. Diagnosed in the way that we do it might be able to say, Hey, based on these orthopedic tests and this range of motion, it, it can probably offer some pretty good differentials.

Yeah. Um, but I think there's situations where it would be fine to say, look, AI was involved in this and patients would quite like that, but it's, it's that delivered by a human, like you say, the front stage needs to be that, not just, I'll email you the AI generated diagnosis later.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, exactly. And that's where it's the human plus ai.

And I'm excited for chiropractors in the sense that I don't think we have a lot to worry about with ai, um, harming our practice. Now, you may have other thoughts on harming our, our existence on this planet, and that's whole other story, but I think it's all on podcast. Yeah. Other podcast and a [00:15:00] different set of experts.

But, um, I think chiropractors obviously, you know, having our hands is gonna be huge. But then I also do think it's a potential opportunity for chiropractors to be even better at communicating, and I think people are gonna be looking more for that connection. Again, whether it's the hands-on work we do, or it's the ability to, to actually talk to a human being that is communicating well to them.

I think it's gonna be a, a, like a double whammy of great. For us, uh, and people are gonna be searching that out because a lot of people are gonna be living lives where they're just, they're talking to technology all the time. So I think it'll be ultimately good for us.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think it's, it's a kind of force multiplier.

I think that. The people who learn to use it a little bit are gonna get a fair bit out of it. The people who learn to use it really well are gonna get even more. And I think it is gonna, when it's used correctly, it's gonna help differentiate those clinics in terms of efficiency. But you can have the most efficient clinic in the [00:16:00] world.

If patients don't feel like you care, they're not going to come back. So I think you are gonna need both to really have the kind of practice that you know, most of us would love to have, which everything runs smoothly. And we have like a great reputation in our area because people go. Kevin's the guy to see, trust me.

He really listens to me. He really took care of me.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I think, you know, as we've dissected it out before on previous podcasts, you know, when you're talking about the patient experience, uh, there is obviously the clinical, and we've talked about that. There's the clinical and you can subcategorize that out as to, okay, yeah, the treatment rendered and the results that is, but then also.

The doctor's communication in that clinical aspect, that goes a, a long way. I mean, it's just huge. The confidence the doctor has, the words they say, the questions they ask, the way they list. I mean, it's just, you know, sometimes it gets lumped into bedside manner, but it's more, it's more than just that. Um, and then you have.

Uh, you know, you have regular service, the service aspect of your business, and [00:17:00] I think AI can help out with that. And then you got the hospitality. What are some of the unique aspects of your patient experience that's different than the usual? You know, the difference between service and hospitality is, yeah.

Okay. The service is like, yeah, make sure my appointment is scheduled correctly and, uh, and, and send me a, a, a reminder, whereas hospitality might be a video you sent afterwards explaining what they had going on in a nice. Whatever. Right. So, uh, and that's what we're gonna try to, you know, our, our goal at you and I getting together in in London is to, to really in one day, put that together.

You're gonna tackle that doctor part of it, that doctor communication part. And I, and I mentioned it last time we were on this, is you did a webinar. For us, uh, our mastermind group. And it just a lot of great feedback from that on ideas and thoughts on communicating that people don't necessarily think about.

And it just, I can't stress it enough because it's, it's one of those weird things is like, it seems like it's [00:18:00] subtle. Um, the different ways that one should communicate, but that subtleness is just massively impacted. And so what, just, what are some of the things you've seen when doctors do make those changes?

What it's done. Uh, for their overall confidence over overall the patient confidence and experience from that Is just some of the experience you've had over the years working with chiropractors on this?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, I kind of, I, I first got interested in this because of the difference it was made for patients and when I got into coaching, I set up patient-centered training.

It was all about, you know. Here's how to get better results with your patients. Here's how to improve their outcomes. You know, they're more likely to follow your advice, stick with a plan. They'll trust you, they'll feel more comfortable. That's all great for people getting results they wanted. And then, you know, I would start to add into that like, oh, and it turns out when you do a great job at this, well that's really good for your reputation.

So that's gonna help your practice. That's gonna help you too. You know, get more reviews, get more organic referrals, give that [00:19:00] reputation to community. So, oh, that's pretty good. Not only are you helping people, but your diary's gonna get busier. Um, the thing I love most about it now though, is it's the impact on the doctor.

It's the impact on the practitioner that when you get really good at this stuff, you. You almost, you can't really be a great communicator, and I would argue you can't be genuinely patient centered without having to have worked on yourself and done some personal growth as well. You know, like we like to separate, keep the personal at home.

When I'm at work, I'm in work mode and there's value to that. You can't come into the practice dumping about with the problems with your marriage or that kind of thing.

Dr. Kevin Christie: That's true. Yeah.

Chris Chippendale: Um, but I, you know, as I've grown as a person. I've become a better chiropractor, and as I've grown as a chiropractor, I, I've become a better person as well.

Mm-hmm. And it's that, that level of confidence, that level of, you know, being able to accept patients where they're at and accept how things are and not feel like, oh, if they don't follow my advice, it means they don't trust me. It means they didn't, they didn't think I was good enough. Maybe they think I'm [00:20:00] not a real doctor.

You know, not take those things personally. Um, but it also just, you know, I heard this statistic a while ago that, you know. It's when marriage is split up, it's not because there weren't enough good times. Like you can have great times. Most of the time when people split up, it's 'cause the bad times are so awful.

They're like, it's not worth the good times.

Yeah.

Chris Chippendale: And I think when chiropractors think about God, do I really wanna do this? Am I burning out? You know, I'm not enjoying practice. I'm not having fun. It's not because they're not having enough good times for patients. It's because the awkward times, you know, the the tricky conversations, the patient's not doing what you want.

Those become so draining. And really if you work on this stuff and that, not just the communication, but the service you provide, the, the experience your patients get, you can develop a level of, not arrogant pride, but like a kind of, there's almost a level of humility and pride mixed in there of I know that what I'm providing is an excellent level of service.

I know that I'm providing excellent care for patients and I know that they're not really gonna be able to [00:21:00] get this to many other places. Mm-hmm. Because of that. If they choose to take me up on it, great. And if they choose not to, I go, well, look, I've got this amazing gift. If this person said, that's not for me, I'll go, that's fine.

I can go and give this gift to somebody else.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Chris Chippendale: And it means that now I, I can't remember the last. Awkward conversation or difficult patient I had.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Chris Chippendale: You know, I'm, I'm really, I that's not like, oh, 'cause I'm such a great communicator. That's because that experience, it brings out the best in your patients.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Chris Chippendale: And yeah, they might disagree, but I enjoy practice more now than I ever have. You know, I graduated 15 years ago. I have more fun today than any point in the last 15 years. So yes, it's, it's great that we provide those outcomes for patients and it's great that that can help grow our business. But that doesn't count if you don't enjoy what you do.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Hmm.

Chris Chippendale: And you know, I, I've almost kind of changed the angle on some of the, some of the course and things I do, or it's to say, this is how you can have more fun and more joy in practice with what you do. And it's great. That gets to help patients as well. But for me, it's, it's the, it's the practitioners who [00:22:00] say, you know, I've fallen back in love with chiropractic again.

I was losing the spark, but now I really love what I do and I really enjoy, you know, some people have been in this 20, 30 years, and you can see this. It's almost like there's a kind of younger energy, they're like excited to get back in and work with patients again. And to me, I think that's key. 'cause if you're, if you're going through the motions and you're just getting by, your patients aren't gonna get the best level of service there.

They're not gonna get the best level of care they could. And answer your question, I think

Dr. Kevin Christie: No, I, I, I love it. And I was gonna, I'm gonna piggyback off. It was, it was, it was great because, you know, a lot of times you get reinvigorated when you do work on yourself or your practice. I know I have over the years.

That's why I love being in groups consistently to try to grow and push myself with it. Which, which really helps. And then I think to your point is if you go all in and you, you, you really work on yourself on communicating with patients and really, really dive into that and you make sure that your team is providing a high level of service and you [00:23:00] start to have fun around having good hospitality in your practice.

Not cheesy stuff, but like. You know, stuff that's remarkable and you do that and you come to the table every day knowing that you're providing great clinical care, great doctor leadership to the patient, really good service, really good hospitality. Then if a patient outcome doesn't go the way you are, you know, you gave it your all.

Uh, if they're not, you know, on. You know, they're not on board with the treatment plan. Okay, that's fine. Let's, that's, you know, it's, it's, your confidence is high and you're not gonna take it. It's not gonna chip away at that, which I think a lot of people go to practice every day and they get dinged every day on their confidence because of things.

It's so, if you get super proactive on building a. Let's call it product, which is the whole thing we've talked about. Then you're, it's hard for your confidence to get dinged like that. Some people are wired differently where they, they, they can just take it and all, you know, and no one's gonna, no one's gonna, yeah.

Chris Chippendale: I'll say I'm not, I'm [00:24:00] not one of those people like, you know, I am negative feedback, you know, it can get under my skin a little bit. I've had to work on that a lot, but it, I'm not this, this naturally just totally con people think I'm, yeah, but that's taken a lot of work. You know, that's not something that.

It's not naturally who I am, but as you grow that stuff, you do develop that confidence and it's, it's like a double-edged thing. It's like, like you say. On the one hand, if people don't want it, that's fine. 'cause I know I've got this great product. But on the other hand, if I've already worked and refined these things, there'll be a lot of patients who would've gone, oh, I'm not sure who, not because of any one thing I did.

It's not because the fact that when they filled out their intake form, I gave them a nice Parker pen. Not a regular kind of cheap bio. It's not gonna be, because, you know. My front desk called them the morning of the appointment to make sure they knew how to get it. It's none of those one things. But you add them all up together.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Chris Chippendale: And there's patients come in who go, I feel really taken care of here. This isn't a transaction. This isn't just Oh. You know, I'll pay you and I'll get the treatment. And hopefully we both feel that was an okay deal. They feel cared for. Um, [00:25:00] that's something as, as a practitioner, I was mentoring, uh, for a while.

He said to me recently, he kind of, you know, I know you and I have talked about the Undertreating thing in the evidence-based world, and he said, it took me a while to realize that actually offering that extra one or two visits that I maybe wouldn't have. My patients feel really cared for when they do that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Chris Chippendale: It's like they actually feel like, oh good, I'm not being kind of like, rushed out the door and off you go and we're gonna discharge you and here's your stuff. And I think a lot of it is that is allowing patients to feel cared for. Mm-hmm. Um, not in a dependency way, but in a way where they feel like I got this attention and this level of focus from my practitioner and their team that I haven't got anywhere else.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. And that's where, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna dive in. I'm excited to be, uh, in London, gonna be in the UK for close to six weeks, which will be nice. But we're gonna do a little jaunt up to over to, to London and, and do this workshop. And you're gonna do half it. I'm gonna do half of it.

We're gonna really get them leaving that weekend with, uh, new detailed patient experience and then obviously some [00:26:00] things to work on to implement that. And so, uh, what are you most excited about for that event?

Chris Chippendale: To be honest, I, I'm excited to, to getting a whole group of us together, like people who are really excited about this stuff.

'cause it's, it's like you say, it's not the. It's all great doing it on your own, but I think having a group around you of people who are similarly motivated. 'cause, 'cause I know that you and I, you know, we're obviously we're gonna turn up and teach 'cause we put, you know, years and years of focus and training into this as well.

But I know there's gonna be conversations with some of the attendees there where somebody might go. Oh yeah, we started doing this. Or someone else might go, Hey, I just thought we could probably do this thing in our practice and mm-hmm. You know, we're all gonna learn together as a community. It's not just gonna be that sort of isolated teacher student mentality there.

And then getting a group of, uh, like-minded people who love this stuff and just have that growth mindset and want to get even better, like you say.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Chris Chippendale: Um, that's what gets me fired up. I, I love those kinds of. Those weekends or those kind of seminars and interactions when everyone's feeding off each other's energy and you can [00:27:00] feel the whole room, everyone's getting excited for what they're gonna do in their practice on Monday.

So that, that, to me, that's what I'm probably most excited about.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Cool. Yeah, it'll be great. They'll, they'll leave with a workbook and an action plan and, and, uh. Hopefully a little bit more excitement around it as well. So, um, okay. That'll be June 20th in London. We're gonna, we've got a cool little venue that we're, we're kind of closing on right now to get that done.

Uh, I'll, I'll put in the show notes and link to register. You still have early bird until March 31st, so still early bird pricing till March 31st and then it goes to regular pricing. And, uh, yeah, looking forward to being over there, Chris.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, me too. It's gonna be good fun.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And then, uh, if anybody wants to find out what you're doing, how can they, how can you steer them to your website?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, so my website is patient centered.co.uk. Um, we'll have to spell it in the show notes 'cause we spell centered differently here.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah,

Chris Chippendale: think the American Spelling Works, but I haven't checked that for a while. Um, that's the best place to find if you're on Facebook. I think there's only one Chris Chippendale in the chiropractic profession, so you can always find [00:28:00] me there as well.

Um, either that on my website.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Awesome, Chris. I appreciate it and looking forward to hanging out with you here in a few months.

Chris Chippendale: Me too. It.

EPISODE 468: Quarterly Planning Considerations

[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. Today I'm bringing you a solo episode and we're gonna do a little riff on quarterly team meetings. But before I do that, uh, excited we've, we started something new this year with some collaborators, with some other, uh, services or products that I use in my clinic, and then, uh, believe that it could be a good fit for you.

And the first one I wanna mention. Is stop pain, which has been cool. I've, uh, worked with them for quite a while, had their product in my office, and it, it's a, it's a great product for your patients to, uh, really help with the pain, right? It uses 10% menthol and it's really helpful for pain relief.

It's got a cooling sensation that eases pain fast. It helps block the pain signals in at the nerve level, and it enhances blood flow. So you can go to. Stop pain clinical.com, www stop pain clinical.com and support them, uh, really good for your clinic and can help your patients [00:01:00] and your bottom line. So check that out.

Uh, so let's talk about quarterly team meetings. Uh, you know, we're, as I record this and it'll be released in March and our coaching programs, uh, we do quarterly planning. We do yearly planning for our members, and we do quarterly planning on our, for our members. And it's a big part of what we do and just not enough.

Chiropractors are planning out their business, right? Everything from, uh, goals to to, to marketing, to financials. Uh, there's a lot that goes on as solving issues and uh, you know, we try to make sure we set the tone for our clients to have. Team meetings and it, it does start with a yearly team meeting. We try to do that in December, early January, and then every quarter, right?

So March is gonna plan Q2 and then you will, you know, rinse and repeat. Basically have a meeting the month prior to the upcoming quarter. So Q2 is obviously gonna be. April, may and June. And you want to [00:02:00] plan, you know, strategically for growth. Otherwise, you know, it's just not gonna, it's not gonna happen by just wanting it to, and, uh, first resource I want to give you is the book Traction.

A lot of you heard of that. Gina Wickman. Gina Wickman was actually on my podcast a year ago, January of 2025, I believe it was. But we talked about a different book he wrote called Shine, but he developed the, he wrote the book, uh, traction and developed a company. EOS or Entrepreneur Operating system. And they give you the free resources on their website as well, on on team meetings and Level 10 meetings, quarterly meetings, yearly meetings, vision, traction, organizer, all their stuff.

Really good. But I just start with the book, read the book Traction, and then it can help you with building out what your team meetings are. You need to have consistent meetings, a yearly meeting, quarterly meeting, a weekly team meeting. And I'm not gonna dive too much into that today, but it's something that we really instill.

On our clients, but the quarterly meeting is gonna be your entire team. [00:03:00] You know, something like the book Traction or EOS is gonna re recommend kinda an all day out of the office type of deal for it. I don't believe many of you need to do that. Um, you know, you definitely can. And if you have a pretty robust clinic with, uh, you know.

10, 15, 20 team members. It definitely can be an offsite one day thing, but I want, I want you to do it reasonable. And in our clinic, um, we do it for two hours. I bring in lunch and we prepare for it and we go work through, through some things I'm gonna talk about here now. But first order is get your quarterly team meeting schedule.

And as you listen to this. You may not have time to do it in March, so maybe early April. You can still get it done in early April. Okay. And so get that on the books. And then in that meeting, um, from what I use on a lot of times for, from the EOS, uh, information. Is you're gonna have your [00:04:00] positive focus, right?

So you wanna start out positive and what's what was good for the previous quarter? Have everybody go around and do that. So you'll roll in from the positive focus, and I think the next category you would do is an issues list. Okay, so an issues list. This is gonna be, uh, big and small. Big and small. And, um, you just go, go into your meeting. With issues that you have, um, we wanna make sure we tackle those. Okay. It could be as small as, um, the computer password needs to be updated to the floors need to be clean to, uh, billing is, we got a billing issue, right?

Big one. So it could be small to big. But we don't want to dust those under the rug. We want to get those out in the open. And so you're gonna tackle some issues. And you know, again, um, they talk about that in the book, traction, how to identify, uh, and solve those. [00:05:00] Right. Um, uh, identify, define, and solve. I believe it is.

And, and have a strategy for that. But some of those big issues lists aren't gonna be solved. That meeting, that's where you're gonna carry over to your weekly meetings. So like when I have a weekly meeting on Mondays, I'm looking at my quarterly or my yearly planner that we did. And I'm using that to develop some of my weekly team meetings to get the ball moving forward.

Okay. Get the ball moving forward and so you'll write out the issues. Um, the next thing that, um, I would recommend you do. Is your quarterly rocks. Okay, so quarterly rocks, again, that's an attraction thing. Some of the bigger ticket items for the quarter, I wouldn't have more than three to five. It's gonna be things like, you know, new website, new EHR that might be a half a year rock, but you get the point.

It could be, uh, we're gonna start a full community outreach strategy. It could [00:06:00] be, uh, we're going to, um, hire. A ca there, you know, these are the bigger ticket items. There's gonna be mul multiple layers to getting this accomplished. It's a, it's a project, okay? It's a, it's a project that you're gonna do.

You're gonna add a new service, right? So there's a lot of things that would be a quarterly rock, three to five of those that you're gonna work together as a team during that quarter to make that happen. Okay? So that'd be your, your quarterly rocks. Um, the next thing you're gonna do is an indicator scorecard.

Some kind of, you know, we use this on the digital dashboard, but it's gonna be your leading and trailing indicators. You're gonna set your trailing indicators. This is gonna be things like new patient, uh, goals for the for the quarter. One thing we've teased out now since we had our mastermind with the great Game of business was.

We've set a yearly critical number, which is one thing, and in our clinic it is new patients. It's not that for, for all [00:07:00] practices. Trust me, there's uh, about eight different things that could be a critical number and that's something that we've been working with our clients on. But, um, you'd want to really get clear on what your critical number is.

That's gonna be one of the, uh, trailing indicators, but that'd be the critical one. So maybe it is new patients. So you wanna set a goal for that? And we work with our clients on setting those goals. Office visits per month would be a trailing indicator. Revenue would be a trailing indicator. Maybe it's new shockwave patients as a trailing indicator.

Uh, Google reviews for the quarter. Um, you know, maybe a month you wanna get 10 a month. That's a trailing indicator. Maybe you want to get five new auto pa, new, you know, motor vehicle accident patients in a month. You wanna set these trailing indicators, you wanna push it a little bit, right? You wanna, you know, strategically set those trailing indicators, then you gotta set the leading indicators to get there, right?

So if, if you wanna get 10, uh, new Google reviews [00:08:00] per quarter, or say per month, sorry, then you need to have a, a leading indicator that's gonna get there. You need to ask, uh, you know, maybe you're leading indicators. Ask every satisfied patient to leave a Google Review, right? That'd be an example. Or if you want a trailing indicator of.

Three new MD patients per month, then you better have a leading indicator of meeting with MDs and doing some stuff to get there. It's not gonna happen, right? So the, the leading indicator is what helps the trailing indicator actually happen. Most people just set a goal and it becomes kind of a dream because you're not doing anything to actually get there.

So when you set your trailing indicator, you need to then. Double down on the leading indicators to get there. So that's the indicator scorecard. That's one of the, we do a whole call on that with our clients during quarterly team meeting to get really clear on it. That's important. And in that meeting, you gotta go over marketing.

What are you gonna do marketing for the quarter? You gonna, what kind of events are you gonna do? What kind of initiatives you got going on? Are you gonna, uh, create videos? Are you gonna [00:09:00] increase ad spend? What are we doing on a marketing standpoint? Like I want, you know, I really want a quarterly marketing plan for your practice to help you grow.

And so that's a, you know, that's a well-rounded. Um, quarterly team meeting, there's obviously a lot more to it and, you know, I wanted to just kind of get you thinking about it. Uh, a great resource is definitely the book Traction. Um, we, we do this for our clients often. Every quarter we're planning, every year we're planning, and it's something that really, really has, um, helped many chiropractors do that.

So don't just let your practice. Aimlessly wave up, you know, kind of go about and, and no direction. A lot of you do have a vision. You just haven't clearly stated what it is, and then you haven't really teased out how to get there. Um, people don't just haphazardly do it. There are people that are just naturally wired to be in constant action [00:10:00] like they.

They throw a lot of shit on the wall and enough of it works to grow and that's awesome. You know, it's not everybody, but there's, there's not enough people doing it strategically, or sometimes people, there's, they'll throw things on the wall and it doesn't work, and then they just say, you know, practice growth or marketing doesn't work.

But there wasn't any strategy around it. And so you gotta have a strategy, you gotta have meetings, and you also have to have trainings, which is a whole other call. But I want you to schedule your quarterly team meeting. I gave you the framework, I gave you some resources. Get it on the books and then work through what your quarterly team meeting's gonna look like.

Make it happen. Serve some good lunch and make this a routine in your practice. If you need help, we are always here to help you. You can always check us out modern chiropractic marketing.com. Uh, we love helping chiropractors out with their planning, their meetings and their trainings.

EPISODE 469: Career Perspective and Wisdom with Rob Pesale DC

Dr. Kevin Christie: All right, Rob, appreciate you hopping on our call today. It's been, uh, it's been a pleasure getting to work with you over the last four or five years in the Mastermind, but before we dive into that stuff, introduce yourself to our audience.

Rob Pesale, DC: Hey, Dr. Rob Pesale. I'm a chiropractor in Stratford, Connecticut.

I've been there since about 1990. Uh, my practice currently with, uh, one of my sons, Dr. Drew, who's been there for now about five years, and things are just going really well, really happy.

Dr. Kevin Christie: No, absolutely. And, uh, it's been cool to, to see Drew kind of coming up and, and, and getting to know him over the last four or five years also and what he's been, uh, bringing to the table there as well, which has been awesome.

And so you, you both have, uh, joined our mastermind group and so, uh, what has been some of your thoughts and take homes of being in our, in our group here?

Rob Pesale, DC: Well, the mastermind group, I mean, I love the concept of it and I know it's not a new thing, but the way you have [00:05:00] constructed it, you bring all sorts of different doctors with all special, um, real talents.

So if you just look at some of the members we have, Vanessa, who can tell you anything you wanna know about how to plan your travel and life on how to, uh. Gather points and pretty much go anywhere in the world you want for free. You have people like David and Ben, who I don't know if there are two better doctors in the world than those two guys.

Yeah. But just listening to them talk. They both teach for shockwave. Ben has his own, uh, program teaching non-surgical joint replacement for the knee and for the shoulder. And then you have guys like Doug who know everything about technology and I can go on and on. Yeah, I mean, there's so many different talented people.

And then when you get them all together in a room. And collaborate. You learn things that you never even thought you didn't know. It's just, it's just an amazing experience. And then the [00:06:00] camaraderie of like getting to know these people, like I would walk through the gates of health of some of these people.

I mean, they're just like PePesaleet of the earth, always willing to help and it's been one of the best experiences of my career being part of the group.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I appreciate it. And you know, a few things that have definitely come from the group that I necessarily wasn't expecting, but one of them was like all of the unique ancillary talents that our members have that then end up helping you one way or the other as well, which has been awesome.

And you named a few of many for sure. I think the second thing is, yeah, it's, you become kind of a tight-knit group that you now, uh, can, because you know, as we're gonna share today. You know, uh, when you have a long career, there's a lot of great moments. There's a lot of hard moments. Ultimately, if you're on the right trajectory, it becomes a great career.

But having a, that group that you can really rely on to get through some of the, the hard times or I was, you know, how to optimize the opportunities that we get as well. And then the [00:07:00] third thing that, and kind of why I wanted to have you on was. Was, you know, a lot of the wisdom that the group has and it, and it's, and I use that word, um, in the sense that, you know, if we looked at it, if you looked at the age demographics of our group, we have, you know, like your son Drew is probably early thirties now, late twenties, early thirties now.

Um, so we have some people in the thirties that are able to bring kind of a fresh, young look and, and not be, um. You know, having 20 years like me or or longer like you, where we might be set in our ways a little bit. So they bring a fresh, uh, outlook on it. Then we have a lot of people in our forties and fifties in the group who are still pushing along.

And then we've had, you know, quite a few in their sixties and, and even early seventies in, in the group. And so it's had a really cool, um, experience range, which then brings, uh, a unique different types of, of wisdom there. So that's been something I, that I've really enjoyed as well. [00:08:00]

Rob Pesale, DC: Yes.

Dr. Kevin Christie: So we, summer 2024, we go back, it's in Chicago.

I had asked you and and another member who were, we call seasoned veterans of, of our profession to, uh, you're being,

Rob Pesale, DC: you're being, you're, you're being very kind.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Um, we typically do these hot seats with members, but this one we switched it up and, and U2 got in front of the, the group. We set up the tables in a u-shape for our audience.

And, uh, and we do different things like that, but we try to really make it a true mastermind where everybody's working together and U2 are kind enough to go up there and do what we called a wisdom session and, and just kind of, you know, you both have obviously, uh, worked very hard. You've, you've both were, um, had.

You know, amazing years and, and, and then oppor, then struggles, and then opportunities to overcome that and, and then have had a great career. So that we'll set the tone where the, I think you would agree the, the profession has been really [00:09:00] good to you and you've been really good to the profession.

Rob Pesale, DC: Yes, it's an honor.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And so we wanted to have you come up there and just. We were asking questions, we had taken a few questions to get some of the ideas there and, and go from there. So that was the context of that, and that's why I wanted to have you on, uh, probably should have done it sooner, but to just kind of, you know, whether our audience is 28 years old or 38 or 48 or 58.

There's, um, there's, there's times where we need to hear. What it looks like for someone that, uh, I mean, you could retire now. You, you don't want to, but you could, you, you, you've done that to where it's, this career has set you up to where you, you're, you're, uh, playing tennis a lot now, right?

Rob Pesale, DC: Yes. Trying to get better and better.

Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Get better and better.

Rob Pesale, DC: Yeah. I'm on my way there. I'm on my way there now, as a matter of fact. Yes.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I love it. I love it. So, um. The first thing I wanted to, to share from that was you told a story about how you really started to build your practice, and, [00:10:00] uh, I wanted to share, have you share this story and people can kind of connect the dots and, and, um, for the modern day.

But you, you told a story of, of how many, how many doors you think you knocked on to build that practice.

Rob Pesale, DC: Yeah, so basically I, um, I'm from New York originally, so I decided to move to Connecticut. So I had a wife. I had a child. I pretty much had no money. Um, I had access to credit cards and my parents took out a $40,000 home equity line of credit to, uh, give me, to help start my practice.

So there I am. No patients really didn't have a location yet. Moved to Connecticut and started. So what I did was I, I took the old Pete Fernandez technique where you go walk door to door. And meet the uh, neighbors. So basically I would just walk door to door every day for about eight to 10 hours. I think I wore about five different pairs of shoes out.

And you introduce yourself, you [00:11:00] ask the person you know about the town, the best area for a location. So what I was doing during that time, just meeting and greeting people and I was getting their name and address, and I would get their permission to see if I could send them an opening announcement if I did decide to practice in that town.

Well, one town I actually knocked out about 800. I met about 800 people in one town in Norwalk. And, um, I ended up not practicing there because at the very last moment, I was only 24 years old at the time. And the, uh, owner of the, um, of the, uh, building I was gonna lease, decided that I was too young to be responsible enough to take the location.

So then I had to switch gears and I picked a different town. So now we're in Stratford, Connecticut. Over a period of about eight months, I knocked on many doors. I met 3,200 people. So I sent them all an opening announcement when I opened and by my fourth week in practice, we were seeing over 200 patient visits a week.

[00:12:00] So it was, uh, I would say I was successful from the start because of everything I did beforehand and I paid off my parents' house loan within two years. And pretty much took off from there.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. I, I love that story. And you know, I think our audience again, can extrapolate in whatever your, you know, modern door knocking, uh, you know, example would be in practice.

There's a, there's just a lot of things one can be doing, and I, and I don't know if the, the startup DC understands how much it does take to get going. Right. Would you, would you agree with that?

Rob Pesale, DC: I think they don't realize how easy they have it now. I mean, I don't wanna sound little curmudgeony that everything was harder back when I did it, but to have to be able to access people on the internet, you know?

Mm-hmm. On video, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, you, you could scale quicker. I, I think you can. And then [00:13:00] you could also do the gr, you could also do the grunt work where you go meet and greet people, do lectures. Meet, you know, your neighbors, um, you know, do workshops. So if you do a combination of both of 'em, it just depends on how hard you wanna work and how successful you wanna be.

So you really have more, I think, opportunity now than you did then. It was a little more difficult, you know, 'cause you didn't really have all the, uh, modern conveniences of what we have now.

Dr. Kevin Christie: No, I, I agree with you on that and, and just like, imagine if you went in your town and you knocked on and you met with, you stop by every MD and every physical therapist, and every massage therapist and yoga studio and, and all those places, and you just stop by consistently and set up meetings and set up, you know, whatever you want to talk about.

If you combined. That level of community outreach, which would be akin to what you did as far as just like getting out there. Uh, and then you, and then you layered on like what you talked about with the digital component and [00:14:00] being able to create content and, and connect with people through. Uh, Instagram and Facebook and all that.

I I agree with you. There's, the opportunity is amazing, right? Yeah. There's, there's a lot of competition in certain towns now, and insurance doesn't pay like it used to, and a lot of people are electing to go cash right outta the gates, which is a, a whole other animal and stuff. But, um, I, I just wanted you to share that story to, to get people to realize like, it's, it's,

Rob Pesale, DC: well, I think you have to, you have to adapt with the times.

If you use, like, you know, let, let's be a little relative here. So if I met 3000 people plus, you know, door to door, what if you don't meet the people? Just go meet, like you said, the massage therapist, the lawyers, the, the medical doctors. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be a lot less people you're gonna meet, but more, more impact as far as the access to the referrals of patients that they have.

Yeah. So that's probably even a better strategy that I didn't do like way back when.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. The gatekeepers Right. Just keep on

Rob Pesale, DC: Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Meeting with them and, and that one might send you five or [00:15:00] 10

Rob Pesale, DC: and forever. Right. You meet one. You know, I've met many relationships with attorneys that I met 30 years ago.

Mm-hmm. And medical doctors, and they. Refer patients. It's evergreen, right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yep, yep. It is. And I just think ultimately chiropractors have to understand that you're opening up a small business and in the grand scale of small businesses, many fail. Yeah. I, I think chiropractors and doctors have a better chance than if you're opening up, you know, like a restaurant that's, that's a whole other animal.

But you still have to understand you're opening up a small business and you, you, you know, people aren't just gonna come flood your gates. No. Your doors with, without you. That's my buddy

Rob Pesale, DC: Eric Caplet. Says, uh, chiropractic's a tough business. You know, where we are not the first choice most of the time, you know, all the propaganda against our profession for all these years, you know?

Mm-hmm. The public's a little brainwashed. It's way better now than it used to be. There's more research proving things, um, and um, you really need to just put your head down and [00:16:00] focus on there's a business side and a healing side. I think the healing side, most chiropractors own it, you know, they just have to really focus on wanting.

Setting clear definitive goals as to what they want their practice to look like. But then you have to do the work, so you re reverse engineer it, and then you gotta put your head down, get busy. A lot of, a lot of people don't like working, you know? Yeah. They, they just expect it to come to them, and then they complain if they don't get it.

You have to have kind of grassroots gorilla marketing type mindset, and you gotta want it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yep. You know, we, we, we we're gonna label this as a wisdom session, but I think like with underneath that, it's, uh, it could be work ethic, it could be, um, conviction. I think one of the things,

Rob Pesale, DC: discipline,

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah. Yeah.

Discipline's huge. I think the other thing that you've had over the years is conviction around what you believe in and what you are gonna recommend to, to patients and people. And, and that's, uh, been something that I've, I've gained from you over the [00:17:00] last handful of years is having conviction around something.

So. Yeah. That's great. Um, now again, we, we kind of framed it where, you know, you've, uh, how, how many years has it been that you've practiced now?

Rob Pesale, DC: Uh, I graduated in December of 1987.

Dr. Kevin Christie: 87. Nice.

Rob Pesale, DC: . November of 1990. I opened my first practice.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Okay. Yeah, so love it. So you're pulling up on the, on the 40 year mark, and as we've stated, it's been, it's been good for you.

But, uh, I think too many people think that every year is going to be a good year, a growth year. If there's a bad year or a bad month. Um, little bit of panic sets in and they think they're not on, they're not on the right trajectory. Um. You had, you'd shared also during that wisdom session in Chicago about one of the major setbacks you had around that dot combo.

Would you mind sharing a little bit of that?

Rob Pesale, DC: Oh, I'd be happy to. So people don't make the same mistake that I did. Well, um, I didn't [00:18:00] really have many mentors as far as financially back when I was very young. Um, so of course I got caught up in the whole.com bubble fiasco. So was that 1999? 2019? Yeah. 1999 and April, 2000.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Okay.

Rob Pesale, DC: Was like the crash.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yep.

Rob Pesale, DC: So I think I, I think I, you know, my first, you know, bunch of years in practice, I saved up a good amount of money and then I poured that into the uh, dot com bubble, but I didn't diversify my assets. Yeah. So I think I ended up losing about $1.5 million, um, when I was about 36 years old.

Not a fun thing to go through. I think I was in depression for a couple years. Yeah. But obviously I turned it around since then. And the advice I would give on that is, of course, to have a good financial plan. Mm-hmm. That's conservative. You don't need to do all these fancy things, you know? Yeah. Speak to a financial advisor if you don't know what to do and, and set up your retirement accounts [00:19:00] and the, and, you know, safe index funds and just be consistent with pouring money into it on a weekly basis.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I, I agree with you on that. And I think it's one of the things to realize is that you can have, um, in the length of a career, you can have some pretty hefty setbacks and, you know, yeah. And I think, you know, obviously things are hard right now in the sense that I know people with like inflation and cost of buying a house, there's a lot of things that are a struggle.

I know for me. Uh, outta the gates. I, I graduated in oh five and then I was, I just opened up a practice with a partner in, in the summer of oh seven, and we were outta network and, and then oh eight happened and that was kind of an eyeopener for me. I was lucky I was still broke, so I didn't have anything.

I didn't have anything. I'll lose

what

Rob Pesale, DC: was going on.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It's great. I'm like, oh, you guys are broke too. Cool. Welcome to the club.

But um. [00:20:00] But it was hard to build a practice in oh eight when no one had any money to spend on anything it seemed like. Uh, but it helped me, uh, really realize I had to work hard so that when I opened up my own practice again, like I, I sold outta that partnership and opened my own in the middle of 2010, and the economy was starting to come back.

Alls I knew was to get out there and work hard and grind for it, and, and fortunately. Um, it, it went pretty well, pretty, pretty quickly there. Um, but I just think, you know, your story shows that, yeah, like there's gonna be some big things that happen on the negative in the grand scale of a 40 year career, but when you do all the right things day in, day out, week in, week out, uh, you can, you can definitely overcome that.

Rob Pesale, DC: Yes, that's true.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And, um, what was some of like, would you say that like one of your lessons from that was to diversify more of some of the profit [00:21:00] into other aspects and then play like the longer game with it?

Rob Pesale, DC: Yeah, of course. I mean, what I did was just, you know, it's in incomprehensible, you know, when I look back on it now, uh, was that really me that did that?

Because now I'm pretty conservative in my investing strategy and Yeah, and consistent with it. So, you know, I, it's sad that no one was able to gimme any good advice back then, but you know what, that's what makes you a better person. You know, you have to make mistakes in life, and it's how you, it's how you bounce back from the mistake you make and the attitude you take on it.

You

Rob Pesale, DC: know, so you can't, you can't let it keep you down. Yeah. It wasn't fun. It was depressing, you know, and I had to turn it around and it just goes to show you that you can, and you know, life goes pretty fast. So you have to enjoy, enjoy each day and make it the most, and just try to keep moving forward.

You know, no one's gonna be perfect. You gotta make errors, you gotta make stupid decisions. Mm-hmm. But I guarantee you, the people who are the most successful make the most mistakes too.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Ah, that's such a good line and it's so [00:22:00] true and I think, I think where a lot of people can overcome it and like where I think you did was that you did keep your focus on building a great practice so that you were able to overcome that because you were able to just grow the practice and then continue to have

Rob Pesale, DC: practice.

I think the one thing, Kevin, that's really helped me my whole career and I try to. Part this on Dr. Drew is that the number one thing that you have to keep in in mind is you have to always have high interest. For the person in front of you, for the patient. Mm-hmm. So if you have high interest for their needs, you're very curious, you wanna really help them, genuinely learn as much as you can from all different conferences and seminars and postgraduate work.

Dr. Drew and I just completed our fellowship through, um, university of Buffalo Med School and Cleveland College of Chiropractic, and that's like a pretty big deal. So like, I'm still learning and I'm, I. Force him, not force, but encourage him to keep learning as well. Because when you have that patient in [00:23:00] front of you, the technical certainty that you have and the ability for you to make a recommendation, knowing that you are doing what's best for the patient and what's right for the patient based on your education, people feel that.

So the practice just balloons, you know? Mm-hmm. People wanna refer, people wanna come back. If they, if they get better and they injure themselves, they think of you first because you did the right thing for them. You're not trying to like, um, not do the right thing for anyone. You always wanna have their best interest at heart and just follow through with that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And that's why I've, I, another thing I've appreciated about the group, you know, you, and let's just say any of our members that are 50 and older, uh, have been great is, is like a beginner's mindset. And I say it in a, in a, in a kind way of where you don't pretend like you know everything, definitely know a lot of good stuff, but you're always looking to, to get better and you're, you maintain that, you know, fascination and motivation with, with career.

Rob Pesale, DC: Oh, yeah. Oh my, oh my. [00:24:00] When I talk to Ben Fergus, I feel like I don't know anything.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Welcome

Rob Pesale, DC: to the club, right? Oh, yes, of course. You always want, you know who, who stops learning? I mean, when you stop learning, I guess you just die, right? So there's always something to learn. There's no way you can l know everything, and there's so many talented people in that group.

Let just look at Tony with this marketing, you know, just, just everyone, um mm-hmm. Tyler and Tiffany with the way they make videos and consistently put that out, right? It's just, yeah, it's ama, it's amazing.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I'm kind of chewing on a solo episode that I'm gonna do around, um. The idea of being a pro, you know, and I think you, you, you know, not too many chiropractors have not yet become a pro.

And when I say that, they're like, you know, really? What would a professional do? Right? What would a pro, what would a pro basketball player do? What would a pro. Act or do what? Like you, you take it serious and you, they

would

Rob Pesale, DC: pr, [00:25:00] they would practice. Right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Exactly. Exactly.

Rob Pesale, DC: Endless days to sleepless nights.

Right.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And keep getting better and better and better and better and better no matter when.

Rob Pesale, DC: Right. I, I guarantee you, Michael Jordan and Larry Bird practiced free throws. Right.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And then we get chiropractors that open up a business and they stop, you know, they might go to get their CS for the state to, so they can keep their license, but they don't go and take that advanced clinical training or that advanced business thing or marketing thing.

They, they kind of just rest on their laurels and they get their continuing ed to satisfy the state requirements. And that's about it.

Rob Pesale, DC: You know what that means? That means, uh, in life sometimes you just get what you deserve, right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yes. Yes. And uh, and that's why I think if you, you do get what you deserve, and if you work hard and you keep on getting better, then you deserve to have a great practice.

And then all the things that, that come to it and. So I want to transition to the last couple questions here, but, uh, framework it a little bit. [00:26:00] I, I was having this conversation with a, some younger dcs, like in their late twenties, and I, I always say it's like the, the hard part about being in your, say mid, late twenties and you're getting into your career is the fact that you don't know if you're gonna be successful, right?

Like, it's kind of a weird thing where, you know, you've done good up to this point, you've gone to school for a long time, you did these things, but you, you know, you just. Don't know if this career is gonna work out. And, um, it's, it's a little bit uneasy. And so what would you say to the, to the young DC um, that maybe we haven't talked about already in this, this episode?

Rob Pesale, DC: Well, I think a lot of that is you're, how much you love what you're doing, number one. Mm-hmm. I mean, you have to, uh, be in chiropractor. You just have to learn as much as you can about your profession, and that should be enjoyable. And then you have to have a mindset is that failure is not an option. You, you know, you are going to, if there's a successful [00:27:00] doctor that practices like you practice.

Or wanna practice. Mm-hmm. You have to go visit them and spend time with them. You know, there are so many chiropractors out there that are so generous with their time. Like, when I first started practicing, uh, I was always very interested in structurally based type of care, and I, um, worked a lot with a doctor named Frank Gilbert, who's a Manhattan, and he used to use Peton T.

So that led me into, uh, learning a lot about chiropractic biophysics, which Dr. Drew and I have both certified in. So we do a lot of structurally based type techniques and the young chiropractor has to have a niche or like their, their sweet spot on what type of PA patient they wanna help, and then they just have to go all in and they have to work hard and they have to learn what to do.

I think getting a coach is a brilliant thing to do. Um. Because you, you're talking to someone who's been through it and Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: So you've had a lot of coaches in the past, haven't you?

Rob Pesale, DC: Yes. Um, you know, some good, some bad. There are some great ones out there, but I would highly [00:28:00] recommend. Um, a young chiropractor, you know, when he decides if he wants to open his own practice is to get a coach and have them help them through it. 'cause they could really guide you on, on things and decisions that you might not even think of at the time, and it would expedite your success.

However, if the person doesn't have the right mindset and the right success mindset in their, you know, in their head that they know they're gonna be successful and failure is not an option, then they will be. That's how life is. You can't have a negative mindset when you're opening a practice or even practicing when you're already open.

Mm-hmm. Because you're gonna have some good days, you're gonna have some bad days. You're not gonna, every day's not gonna be great. But you have to keep your eye on the prize and set your goals and just keep striving for them. So I would say that young chiropractors just have to learn how to work hard.

It's not easy, you just have to, uh, put the time in. Do what you're supposed to do, and if you're not sure what you're supposed to do, you have to ask someone. [00:29:00]

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, and I keep on diving like for myself personally, and then I always try to navigate how much I dive into it with, uh, on a podcast or whatever.

But I just, you know, like you mentioned earlier, the idea of resiliency and it's just that there's a lot of human beings that are. Very resilient. And what are, and then there's also certain things you can do to become more resilient. Obviously some people are maybe hardwired that way, but there is things you can do to improve your resiliency.

And if you don't feel like you're resilient, because you always have to be careful. Now, if you say someone's not resilient or this or that, they kind of, you know, maybe get a little offended by that. Uh, but if you're offended by. Someone saying that you might want to improve your resiliency. It might be a sign that you need to improve your resiliency, right?

Rob Pesale, DC: That's a hundred. That's a hundred percent correct.

Dr. Kevin Christie: That's like the, you know, Jeff Foxworthy, you might be a redneck if type of thing. [00:30:00] Um, yeah. Alright. So

Rob Pesale, DC: sometimes do you have to just look in the mirror and it will tell, it tells you everything.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. No, it does. And you gotta just be honest. Like, self awareness is huge and there's nothing wrong with, right.

I mean, I, I got my flaws and I keep on, uh, being honest with myself and try to work on it. And it's a, it's a never ending game of improvement, right?

Rob Pesale, DC: Oh, a hundred. Like, I, I play tennis and I, I turn to one of the fellow players. I go, look, I'm really sorry. I'm just a so loser I can't change. So it's what it is.

That's great. Great. So I'm just competitive. I can't help it. That's how I am.

Dr. Kevin Christie: All right, so now let's fast forward a little bit and if there's anything different that you would say to someone about my age, and let's call it the, the mid forties where you're, you're starting to enter in that back nine of the, of the profession and you can really make hay the next 15, 20 years.

Or if you're not careful, you can really run into that burnout and disgruntledness. Uh, what do you say [00:31:00] to to that, that age group chiropractor.

Rob Pesale, DC: Well, I would say that is the best age a chiropractor.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It is. I

Rob Pesale, DC: love

Dr. Kevin Christie: it.

Rob Pesale, DC: I love it. Oh, I think so because now you're a, you're a mature adult. Yeah. You, you know, you've seen things, you've had some wins, you've had some losses.

By that time, you should know how to respond to them and how to handle the ups and the downs. And then what I would tell you to do is work every day and set up your practice and your life like you're gonna sell it. So you want every decision you make in your office, especially like, you know, in your like mid forties, 50 years old, you wanna design it so someone else can step in and pretty much do it for you.

And it doesn't need you there because you don't want a job, right? You just, you know, you want to be able to step outta your practice whenever you want. You want to be able to sell your practice to, you know, for a, for a high multiple. Um, and I, I think you just enjoy the fruits of your labor. Too many doctors and too many people in [00:32:00] general don't take a deep breath, stop and look around and, and see like, wow, this is pretty good.

I have a pretty good life. I could travel. I go to conferences, I play golf, I play tennis. I go on vacations. I go to Europe and they don't appreciate it, and they, and they get lost in the minutiae of day-to-day practice. And I, so I think people in, people in their forties and fifties, you know, I would say save your money, right?

Mm-hmm. And keep building your practice. And I would say keep learning how to be a better doctor and a better businessman. Just keep learning. 'cause that fuels energy. Yep.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I, I love that. Yeah. And I, and I, kind of going back to tying it in is, um. If you're the younger DC, uh, a lot of times you just gotta keep pushing forward and get to like age 40.

It does get better. Uh, it, it's a summation really, and you know, but I think a lot of times they hit the, the mid thirties and maybe they don't feel like they're at where they are and they get. Burned out or even leave [00:33:00] the profession. And it's like, if they could have just overcome that hurdle and push forward, you build something and then you really get to, uh, enjoy it at that point.

And, uh, that's something that I've, I've recognized now that I'm in my mid forties. Luckily I did work very hard for 20 years and, and was pretty strategic and had a lot of good coaches and people around me, um, to help make decisions. But yeah, I've had. You know, you had your big hurdle. I've had, uh, I've always outlined my 2015, but it's just amazing what what you can do.

And I, and I heard a great, uh, breakdown of going back to that word, uh, resilience. It's not, the lady said she was an expert. I, I wish I could remember her name, but she said it's not about balancing back, it's about balancing forward. And for me that really resonated because a lot of times you can, you can get even better after the, the struggle.

And so if you can just kind of. Work hard and, and get through some of those things early on, and you get into that back nine, it, it really can be fun.

Rob Pesale, DC: Yeah. [00:34:00] I I, hundred percent you really should enjoy the process and

Dr. Kevin Christie: mm-hmm.

Rob Pesale, DC: You know, just take one day at a time and just enjoy it and it, it, it's a fun life.

It's a rewarding profession. Think of all the people that we help, you know, without drugs and surgery and, oh, it, it's, what's better than that really? I mean, unless you, you know, you're crazy. I don't know what to say.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Well, Rob, this has been a, this has been a pleasure. Uh, we'll have a part two where we talk about if you're crazy or not, and, uh,

Rob Pesale, DC: sounds great.

I'll see you in Tampa. Yeah. Yeah,

Dr. Kevin Christie: I was gonna say, I look forward to seeing you in Tampa. Okay?

Rob Pesale, DC: Yep. Thanks, Kevin.

Dr. Kevin Christie: All right.

EPISODE 470: Becoming the Disc Injury Expert In Your Community

Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I am going to discuss, um, positioning in your community. I'm gonna use, uh, being a, a disc injury expert as the, uh, kind of topic that we roll through. But when we, uh, have our coaching clients, one of the things we always do, and I've, I even had this, uh, in my book that was, uh, published by Parker University doing it right.

Modern chiropractic marketing, but it's the audience builder tool. Uh, it really helps you have a clearly defined audience and then a clearly defined message to get there. So I'm gonna kind of roll through that, that tool that we use, but then use, uh, the disc patient as kind of our example as we, we do run through this.

Okay. And, you know, I think a lot of chiropractors could. Strongly consider, you know, really trying to position yourself as the disc expert. Obviously there's plenty [00:01:00] of chiropractors that have, there's, there's certain, um, modalities, you know, like say, uh, decompression that does that. There's, uh, certain trainings on understanding disc injuries that do that.

There's, you know, this isn't, um, you know, anything revolutionary as far as a chiropractor. Becoming a disc injury expert, but I want to, um, kind of talk about how you could get your message out there a little bit more. Right. And when we go through this audience builder, the, the first thing we do is the XY axis of positioning.

It's a Seth Godin, uh, concept, and you got your vertical and horizontal axis, and you've got your four quadrants. And on the vertical axis, say you got expert on the top and non-expert on the bottom, and on your horizontal axis you would have something like maybe generalist or wellness. Uh, and then on the other end of that would be.

Uh, something very specific, like, let's call it disc patients, right? And you want [00:02:00] to do enough to become the expert in disc injuries and you gotta move that needle up out of maybe the non-expert disc, uh, quadrant to the expert disc quadrant. And that's gonna happen, you know, various ways. Yeah. You, you know, being clinically.

Skilled at it is a huge one. That's, that's kinda the table stakes. But if not enough people in your community know about what you do and your expertise, then in the eyes of enough people, you have not reached expert level, right? You're kind of in that non-expert level because frankly, just not enough people know you.

Okay? And if you're lucky enough and you work hard enough and you're brilliant enough, you. Can sometimes even transcend the profession, right? Like certain folks, someone that would come to mind, it'd be like Stu McGill, uh, and Disc stuff. I know he is not a chiropractor, but he's kind of transcended and, and he's become [00:03:00] one of the experts in it, uh, nationally, uh, I guess I should say internationally.

I don't need you to worry about becoming the international expert in disc injuries. If you do, awesome, but let's assume that's not gonna be the case. I need you to be the expert in your community and when you can really hone in on that and say, yeah, I want to do that. Then we can actually make progress in turning you into, uh, the expert in DISC patients.

And again, I'm just gonna use DISC in this call. Uh, but you could apply this to anything else if you wanted to be desk workers or runners or, you know, plantar fascitis, foot, ankle, right? Any of those, you could do a lot of different things. So step one is getting clear on how you wanna position yourself.

And we've, we've done that. We're gonna do that with discs. Okay. Um, then you gotta determine, you know. The psychographics of your ideal audience, right? Because I could, I could break down a lot of different psychographics of disc [00:04:00] related patients and, uh, that the psychographics are gonna be different than the demographics, right?

So demographics are gonna be age, gender, income level, education, that type of stuff. And that's fine. You know, you, you doing marketing towards that is not. An exercise in futility, but I think starting there is not what we want to do. We want to actually focus on the psychographics, and that's going to be the personality traits, values, attitudes, interests, and lifestyle of the consumer.

Okay. And so some of the things that come off the top of my head on, uh, psychographics, that a lot of chiropractors, um, you know, kind of yearn for in their patient base are people that are health conscious, right? You could have the disc patient. That's, uh, super healthy and is a, a power lifter, right? And very health conscious.

You could have a disc patient who is, uh, a cigarette smoker, sits at a desk, uh, you know, 10 hours [00:05:00] a day, hasn't worked out in 10 years, and is 30 pounds overweight. Um, not very health conscious. You may not want that psychographic. You want the disc, but not that, uh, psychographic, right? Uh, another psychographic could be active lifestyle.

It could be, you know, obviously values natural solutions. There's people that get disc injuries and they want nothing to do with natural solutions. They just wanna go under the knife tomorrow. Um, you know, other psychographics, high quality of life, maybe weakened warrior seeking health longevity, right?

Those are the things I would say are on the, some of the examples. There's probably many more, and you can, you can work through that, uh, of psychographics that most chiropractors are looking for. And so when you're setting out to say, yeah, I want to be the disc injury expert, um, I want. But I want patients that have disc injuries that are mostly in these psychographics.

It's not gonna be perfect, right? You are gonna have that, uh, cigarette smoking sitting, [00:06:00] uh, 30 pound overweight, hasn't worked out. Patient in your practice, it's gonna happen, but when the majority of people in your practice fit the psychographics, you like. Then you can handle the ones that don't. It's when you're 80% of your practice are psychographics you don't like, where you start to get frustrated, burned out, and you're not getting the satisfaction you want out of the results you're getting, frankly.

And the results are gonna be hard with those people too. So, uh, so that's step two is determine the psychographics and then Yeah, you can do. You know, a kind of a demographic check and say, okay, um, do who, obviously with disc, uh, there's gonna be an age component. We know that. Uh, you might also say, you know what, um, I'm out of network with insurances.

Uh, it's a little bit higher. Cash rates, I, I, I, I do need people that can afford my care. So there's a financial demographic there that you might consider, uh, when you go, uh, to, to figure this out. Okay.[00:07:00]

Now we move on to step three, which is determining groups of people that you want to target in your marketing and your messaging. And what I like to do here when I'm, when I've gotten clear on say, a type of condition that I want to target. Like disc, I will say to myself, okay, who suffers from disc injuries?

Right? Um, could be golfers, right? That could be a group of people. And what I like to do here is like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick a, a condition like disc. I'm gonna pick a group that suffers disc injuries, and then I'm gonna do my psychographic. Crosscheck. All right. Golfers? Yeah. Health usually, uh, active lifestyle, right?

A lot, A lot of them do value natural solutions. They do want a high quality life if they wanna play golf, uh, they are seeking health longevity, right? A lot [00:08:00] of 'em are weekend warriors and a good amount of them are. Health conscious, then you can go and do your demographic check. Yeah. Golfers usually, if they can afford to be golfers, can afford your care, and they're usually of a pretty good age that suffers from disc issues.

You also might wanna deal with stenosis. I'll let you figure that out if you wanna also be the stenosis expert. But, um, we'll move on to just focusing on DISC for this, uh, sake of this podcast. Right. Um, I would say desk workers would be another great one. Strength, power, weight, weightlifters. People like that for sure.

Right. Other rotational sports. I mentioned golfers, but it could be, it could be tennis, uh, could be CrossFitters, right? Definitely could be that. And so start to think about what I could, there's a laundry list of 'em, but you get the idea, like start thinking about where you would find these groups of people that do deal with.

Disc issues and then check the psychographics and check the demographics, [00:09:00] and now you've got your groups. That's a big part of building a clearly defined audience is okay. What groups of people. Then what you would do is when you're building this out is, um, let's just take golfers, right? So I'm just going to focus on golfers with the disc issues right now.

Um, you want to figure out where you find these golfers. There's offline congregation points and there's online congregation points, offline congregation points, gonna be golf courses, country clubs, golf stores, teaching professionals, golf specific personal trainers, right? Um, all really good ways in the community.

To get referrals and to do workshops and get ref, you know, a, a teaching pro is a good gatekeeper where they can send you many people and so start getting out there. That's the offline congregation points. And then you got the online congregation points, right? It could be something like. Facebook specific targeting.

If you're TPI certified, TPI golf referral director, they have, maybe there's a [00:10:00] closed Facebook group in your area of golfers. Instagram's good YouTube searching for golf health and performance tips is, is prevalent. And then frankly, with the online congregation points is if you create a lot of good content articles and videos and posts on social media and stuff on your website and messaging around it.

You will sift, sort, and screen through everybody and, and you will become a magnet for those golfers that are dealing with disc injuries, right? And if you do a good job of it's creating disc injury content and you're good at treating discs, then uh, golfers will find you. Uh, and, and other providers would refer to you as well, right?

So an offline congregation point could be, um, you know, primary care doctors and obviously MD orthos, uh, that are looking for conservative care of disc injuries. Uh, maybe you're McKenzie certified and you connect with other PTs. There's other people that you can connect with. That would, um, [00:11:00] that would attract referrals, uh, for disc patients.

All right, so now you got clear on, okay. I got my, I position myself as the disc injury expert. I want these types of psychographics. These are the groups that suffer from disc injuries. I'm gonna do a crosscheck of psychographic and demographic. Then I'm gonna tease out where I'm gonna find those groups like golfers and desk workers, and, and really have a plan of attack to get out there into the community.

Now you've, that's, that's your clearly defined audience. You know, I, I went through one, uh, and you would go through different ones. And again, you could do this for other things. You don't have to only treat discs, uh, as you can imagine. But this could set you up really nicely to, uh, target this in your community and.

You know, put a megaphone to your expertise and amplify your message out there, and people will start considering you, uh, the expert. Right now I'm going to, I'm gonna touch on one thing here on the messaging [00:12:00] side. So usually when we, when we go through this audience builder, we spend kind of half a time building on the audiences that our client wants.

Then we spend the other half on the messaging around it. And one of the things we do, and I'm just gonna. Work on the golfers, again, on the messaging is if you're familiar with building a StoryBrand, uh, by Donald Miller, he has seven characteristics of the story. I think it was chapter 17 in my book, I got clearance by Donald Miller to write about it and tease it out how it pertains to chiropractor.

So you could reference that. Uh, you can go to Amazon or my website, uh, to get our, get my book if you need to. Um, but he talks about the seven characteristics of a story. Where is one is the character. Who has a problem number, which is two meets a guide, which is three who has a plan, which is four, and calls 'em in action, which is five avoids failure, which is six, and leads to success, which is seven.

Okay. Uh, in this scenario, the golfer is are [00:13:00] character, which is one you are the guide. Which is three. The problem number two, Donald Miller breaks down into external, internal, and philosophical conflicts and how that would relate to say a chiropractic situation. Here is the external conflict in my mind is gonna be the diagnosis, right?

The, the low back disc injury in, in the golfer. That's the external conflict. The internal conflict is the driver that says. To this person, I need to go see somebody for this. Right? You'd be, we all know, like a lot of people deal with pain for a while before they actually do anything about it. It's the internal conflict that motivates them to, to seek a solution, right?

And so some of those internal conflicts for the golfer might be they don't want to miss out on the member member golf tournament coming up. Uh, being able to golf play satisfies their competitive drive. Socializing with friends is important to them. Uh, not being able to play golf makes them feel old, right?

Those would be the internal conflicts where they, they raise their hand and say, I need to see someone for this [00:14:00] now. Who are they gonna want to see? And there's the philosophical conflict here, which is, uh, maybe they don't want surgery. They're, they're trying to find someone that's not gonna put 'em under the knife.

They don't wanna be prescribed long periods of rest. They don't wanna go to that doctor and say, yeah, stop playing golf for three months. They don't want that. They don't want pain medications, right? I'll allow Tiger, tiger Woods, um, afraid they have a disc herniation that will prevent them from, from playing golf.

And, and they have all these. Nightmare concerns about what a disc herniation is. Okay? That's a philosophical conflict. And when you get clear on your messaging, on the content you create, or the conversations you have with golf pros, or you do a workshop and you're clear on this and you position yourself as the solution to get them back to playing golf quickly without pills, drugs, or surgery, and long period periods of rest.

That's why people want to go see you, right? And if you do this long enough, because they may hit the internal conflict and say, [00:15:00] yeah, I need to see someone for this. But they can go see orthopedists, physical therapists, other chiropractors, massage the like, all these other people that they think they can go see.

We need them to think of you. And when you do this long enough and, and, and diligently, you become the expert that solves their problem, right? And so you need to get clear on those messaging points for this. And we tease this out for a lot of different types of audiences that chiropractors would want.

And then from there, you're gonna apply this messaging to your website. Um, to your blogs, to your videos, to your patient communication, to public speaking to your meetings, right? And that's something that we work with a lot on our clients on getting clear with that. And so now if you do this right, you will, um, have the clinical skillset that you are confident in to actually assess and treat disc injuries.

And you are now, [00:16:00] um. Possessing really good, uh, positioning, audience building and messaging to get the message out there concisely and consistently to motivate enough people to come see you and turn you into the expert. Right. And I think, uh. I think you can get amazing results when you combine. I shouldn't say I think I know you can 'cause I see it all the time and obviously I, early on and I just kind of mentioned it, is you do have to become really good at disc uh, patients, disc patient care, right?

Because the, the killer is when you think you can put lipstick on a pig. And have really good marketing and messaging and get people in. But if you don't have the goods and you don't get people better, then it's just not gonna work out. Um, you, you, you're gonna struggle, you're gonna spin your wheels. It's when you have good messaging and marketing and you get out there consistently and people come in and you get great results, that the [00:17:00] whole thing just takes off.

And so I, I implore you to continue to get even better. With managing disc related issues. Okay. Um, and, and I, and I know you can and there's a lot of ways to slice it. Uh, one of the things that I know a lot of you, uh, heard about and like, is McKenzie protocol. I think that's a great one. I don't, I don't have any, um, official sponsorship or anything with, with them.

I do know that, um, MPI is is actually having a master series on. The disc, and that's gonna be with Brett Winchester, Mark King and Tom Lotus. And Tom Lotus is. Uh, really, he, he's a good example of someone that has positioned himself as an expert in disc related issues, uh, on a, on a pretty high scale and, uh, to the point where he's now teaching it with MPI.

And obviously we know about [00:18:00] Mark and Brett. And their skillset. And so if you really want to, um, enhance your evaluations and assessments and treatments of DISC patients and be able to really hone that, I, I highly recommend you check out, uh, that master series disc, uh, seminar. So it's a really good one.

It's gonna be on June 6th and seventh. Um, it's gonna be in Chicago. Easy to get to. Good weather in Chicago and June, I'm usually in Chicago for June. It's, it's amazing weather. Uh, so it'll be there. Um, and again, that's gonna be, uh, Brett Winchester, Mark King and Tom Lotus. June 6th, seventh, uh, 2026. Just go to motion palpation.org.

Uh, I, I really believe in what MPI does, as you know, I believe in the, uh, the training they do around the disc. I know there's other things you could supplement it with, but if you go here. Whether you feel like you're a beginner or even advanced, uh, with disc stuff, this is gonna get you even better than you currently are, and then you'll have [00:19:00] all the confidence and conviction to then work on what I just talked about for the last, uh, 20 minutes here.

Around positioning yourself as the expert with great marketing and messaging around that. And when you marry the two great clinical with great, uh, consistent marketing, that's when you will, uh, develop the patient base that you want and grow the practice that you desire. So check that out. Motion pal patient.org.

June 6th, seventh this year, um, you will not regret it. Hope that was helpful for you to understand how you can position. Again, I use the disc as our example today. Um, you could use, uh, injuries, right? You could use sports. You, you could use patient populations like pregnancy and pediatrics, right? There's a lot of things you can do.

I wouldn't do too many, right? If you're, um. You try to please everyone, you please, no one. And I think, uh, getting really clear on four to six, uh, really helps you get going and building [00:20:00] a great strategy for your practice. Okay.

EPISODE 471: Strategically Fulfilling Your Vision with Brennan Donahue DC

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Brennan Donahue, who is now one of our MCM coaches. We onboarded him early in the year and has already added a handful of clients to his roster, and so I wanted to have him come on and. And share a little bit of his journey.

He's been on the podcast before and we're gonna get some updates from there on how he's, uh, strategically built his practice and, and really utilize the vision, uh, to do that. And some of the things he's excited about with working with chiropractors and what, uh, he is, uh, learning in that process as well.

Uh, before we dive in, just wanna make mention again, one of our collaborators is Stop Pain Clinical. Uh, I use them in my practice. We've had it for a couple years now. Um, we, not only do we have it for sale, but we've actually bought some little ones and we do a nice, as part of our patient experience or, or I should say our new patient experience is we have a little gift basket.

Uh, we follow the a IG rules on gifting, and one of [00:01:00] those is. The stop pain, and a lot of patients pick that. It's a great, uh, 10% menthol topical analgesic, and it does have MSN and glucosamine in there. So, uh, check that out. That's stop pain clinical.com. That's one P in Stop Pain Clinical. And you can see that in the show notes as well.

But highly recommend them, uh, for your clinic and for your patients, and probably for yourself on a long day of. Treating patients. Alright. Without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Brennan Donahue.

Alright, welcome to the show, Brendan. I really appreciate you having on, again, I forget how long ago was you, were, you were on, but it's been a fun journey over time. Be Before we dive into, uh, everything we're gonna discuss today, introduce yourself, tell us about your practice and, uh, where you're at, and all those fun things.

Brennan Donahue DC: Yeah, thanks for having me on again. First time was enjoyable and hopefully today's too. So I am in St. Louis, Missouri, about 30 minutes away from [00:02:00] Logan's campus. Mm-hmm. Um, it's one of those that we have a sports-based practice, but, um, sports to us is anybody looking to, to better themselves in one way or another from Park, park Walker to, to an endurance athlete.

So, um, based. I, I built my practice around a RT principles. Mm-hmm. And adjusting. And since we've kind of transitioned to shockwave and laser dry needling, still some a RT for sure. Um, and, uh, building the rehab side. Absolutely. And part of why I wanted to have you on is you're, uh, one of our, you're our latest coach for MCM.

Dr. Kevin Christie: So you're, you've taken on clients already. It's been cool to see, uh, us kind of get you onboarded. And then right when we started to have you coaching, we've definitely had a nice influx of clients and you've been taking some of those on. And what I wanted to do was kind of see how we got from when you opened your practice to the point now where you're, you're helping other.

Practice owners out. Yeah, I think it's one of those that it [00:03:00] bringing you on was one of the, uh, the smartest decisions I had just because I felt like I was at a point where, uh, I had a lot of ideas but couldn't conceptualize how to put 'em in order, you know, and so building the marketing side out and building policies and procedures and things like that, and then just implementing over a long period of time has.

Brennan Donahue DC: As it, it then transpired into, man, I thought I'd really enjoy coaching. And we had that conversation a few years ago and mm-hmm. And now we're here being part of the team and taking on clients and helping other people try to achieve their goals. So, yeah, definitely. And one of the things I keep on chewing on is I, I might do a solo episode on the idea of, you know, being a pro, right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: And it's, um, one of those things where if you were. Uh, you know, a, a quarterback of an NFL team or a CEO of, uh, Amazon or, or whatever, you would have to really be a pro. Like, you'd have to do all the things it takes to do that, right? It's, it might take long hours, it might be a lot of sacrifices, but [00:04:00] there's a level of being a pro and what that means, uh, and that's one thing that you've done is you've taken.

Being a chiropractor and a business owner. Seriously. 'cause it's not easy. I think we sometimes think that, uh, it's just a natural evolution of being a chiropractor that one day you should open your own practice and it should be easy and it should succeed and, and all those. But we fail to realize how many small businesses, uh, fail in our country.

Um, yeah. Yeah. I think we have a. A better chance as a chiropractor, uh, than other types of businesses, like an ice cream shop or something. But, uh, it doesn't, doesn't mean, you know, there's chiropractic offices that open up and they do survive. There's some that don't. I think we have a higher survival rate than say, an ice cream shop or, or the like, but.

The thing that I think you've noticed and we've noticed with working with many clients is too many of them, uh, of the practice owners are frankly just surviving. And, [00:05:00] uh, that's nowhere to be over, you know, year in and year out. It's obviously you wanna survive the first few years, but it, it shouldn't be survival mode forever.

We want to be in that thriving mode. Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and I know that. Frankly, it was one of my, my ceilings at one point was trying to figure out the business, the family, and you know, fitness and things like that. And at one point in my life I was able to lean way harder into fitness and now.

Brennan Donahue DC: Um, I know I actually, I start my days early to get work rocking and rolling so I can pick my kids up in the afternoon and take 'em to the library and things like that. So it was all about realizing the work has to get done in 24 hours no matter what that is, and mm-hmm. I just started to learn how to allocate my time accordingly to be able to show up in all aspects of life that I feel are important to me.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Priorities for sure. Um, now let's, let's rewind. What year did you graduate from Logan? Uh, 2016. 16, so late August. Yeah. Yeah. And then tell us what it was like graduating and what you, you know, kind of the first couple [00:06:00] years there. Yeah. So right, uh, right up to graduation I thought I would end up being an associate and just none of the positions.

Brennan Donahue DC: Mm-hmm. Excited me. And so, yeah, I did decide to take the plunge and um, I started in about 200 square feet of gym space out of a CrossFit gym locally. But with that being said, I all, uh, instantaneously was building my next facility, right? Mm-hmm. I knew I wanted to be bigger than this, and it was one of those situations where it was a starting point, but I knew it wasn't gonna be a long, um, a, a long transition for me to try and find more office space.

And so that was October I started in the CrossFit gym. By March of 17, I was now in our office space, which is 1400 square feet. Um mm-hmm. And now, you know, our rehab space is bigger than the room I started in. So yeah, it transitioned to that. And there's been many iterations of moving the office space around, changing office hours over the years, just trying to figure out what works and.

I think there's an [00:07:00] elegant way to do that without, uh, causing distress amongst your patient population. Yeah. And, and, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, aren't you expanding into the other space that is in the works? So we, there's 1400 square feet right next to us, and that vet is retiring and the, we have a little sticking point.

He hasn't notified, uh, the landlord yet that that is the game plan. And so he knows I want the space and so he is gonna bring that up when he talks to the landlord. Yeah, so you'll hopefully effectively double your space and be able to grow into that, which will be nice. We just had our quarterly team meeting on Wednesday, and that is our goal.

By next, this time next year, we, we've doubled our, our footprint. Yeah. And so you've been, you know, you're, you're 10 years into it now, which is cool. That's a, that's a cool landmark. I feel like, you know, you, you're 10 years to graduate, but also 10 years as a business owner and, and, and you just kept on, uh, sequentially breaking through those ceilings of complexity like you mentioned, and growing and taking the next step.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Um, you know, everything [00:08:00] from increasing office space to increasing revenues and profits, hiring associates and team members, and. And, and now what have you enjoyed on the leadership front? Because I know obviously it takes a different level of leadership when you first start out versus now having multiple team members and growing and then obviously now, uh, coaching clients.

What, what, what are your thoughts on the leadership side of things? Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up. 'cause frankly that was, um. That was something I brought up to my team during our team meeting is the fact that we've gotten to the point where, um, hiring and firing is based off our core values. So we know the team members that we've built, they align with our core values, which has built my trust within them, which has allowed me to get way better at delegating rather than feeling like I need to take everything on myself.

Brennan Donahue DC: Um, and with that delegation one, it's giving people to grow within the organization and have other responsibilities and roles. My, my front desk person. We transitioned January 1st into our patient [00:09:00] care coordinator, and then we brought on a new front desk person. And, um, so the delegation has freed me up to do a number of things, be with my kids, but also open up to time to be able to commit to my clients that I'm coaching through and be present with them as well.

Um, so yeah, the leadership is fun for me. I enjoy it. Uh, I'm, I'm a hard reflector, so if I do something, you know, that, that is subpar for what I think I should, I'm willing to admit that and I know my limitations as well. Yeah. You know, was interesting before this interview, I was on a call with our, uh, we, we now are, um.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Alex, she's our kind of MCM brand representative. She's gonna be going to different conferences and the first one she'll be at is in, uh, Washington DC for Jay Green Signs event. So we were talking about things and, and she had a lot of good insights on, we're also concurrently talking about increasing our LinkedIn presence a little bit, but she was asking me about different niches that our coaches [00:10:00] have or different types of clients they excel at.

And I was going through each and, and I was talking about you, and one of the things that, uh, because there's, there's reasons why you would. Uh, bring on a coach and it's not always, it's like, oh yeah, like they got a million dollar practice. Like, yeah, def definitely nice and, and, and all that. Or they've been doing it for 30 years, or, you know, there's, there's a lot of reasons why you'd bring on and, you know, there, you, Kurt, Ashley, myself, we all have different strengths.

We all have different experiences and wisdom, but I think one of the things that. Why I brought you on, was that kind of going back to be being a pro, is that, um, you. You set a standard for yourself and it's a very, um, it's a, it's a high standard and you have a very strategic way of, of setting the standard and achieving the standard.

And then I figured with that, with your ability to, [00:11:00] you, you have that ability to, uh, speak your mind in a way that needs to be spoke, but doing it with that Midwest nice. Um. Uh, high eq. Yeah. Yeah. Where it was like, uh, and so it's great. And then you, you can kind of, uh, get, get the point across well, and that resonates with most people.

And so I think that's something that is a strong suit for you on leading your team, leading your family, uh, and then now, now leading some chiropractors that are trying to also, you know, set their own standard, what that looks like. You helping 'em do that, helping them. Dev, develop a plan to do that because that's what's been interesting.

'cause you, you and I first started working together, I think through CSA, right. And. Then you were one of my first clients as a coach when I started coaching one-on-one. And you just continually have done the things that needed to be doing to, to, to really achieve your vision, not someone else's. Right. And [00:12:00] I think that's the problem with a lot of coaching programs and a lot of coaches is that.

You try to put everybody in the same box and then force feed 'em that to get there. Um, so I wanted to, to kind of make mention of that and, and that's my long, uh, segue into, um, what what is your. The next three years for you, I wanna hear what your vision is for your practice. Uh, okay. And then we'll kind of go into what your, uh, some of the insights you're getting from some of your clients, but what, what's the next three years look like for, uh, active STL?

Brennan Donahue DC: Yeah. Uh, the next three years, hopefully the vision is that we're at least adding another chiropractor, so we're doubling our square foot. Yep. Um, there's a space open to that with the potential of tripling. Mm-hmm. Um, we're not gonna get ahead of ourselves too far, but, um, at least doubling our square footage.

Um, bringing on a third doc, getting it to the point where we have two preceptors with us at all times. [00:13:00] Mm-hmm. Um, we're doubling our front desk. We're, uh, the patient care coordinator kind of moving into an office, managerial role three years from now with enough reps in time. Mm-hmm. Um, and so again, that constant, uh, forward progression of roles is important to me because if we stagnate for too long, I think that's where we lose really good, um, really good team members that move on to the next best role.

Um. And I think it's one of those that we have a really high importance on increasing our rehab and cash side as we stay in the insurance network. Yeah. Um, because that's a driving factor for our practice growth. And so I, I'm mm-hmm. We've kind of committed to not withdrawing all those options mm-hmm.

But layering on services that allow us to. Increase our outcomes by and collect a few extra dollars while we do that. Yeah. And you've been in our mastermind since the beginning, which was another at the time, in 2022, uh, you, you were making a big commitment for not only the [00:14:00] cost of join the Travel, but also it was the first year, and who knew if it was gonna be any good.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It's obviously been, uh, really awesome, uh, but. I think you and I have probably both gleaned from the mastermind group in there is that a lot of the best practices I'm, I'm seeing right now, and this is not. This is not everybody. I, I'm outta network with insurances, but some of the best we're seeing right now are the ones that are in network with insurances, but have really built good systems around that and have layered on, uh, very effective, uh, cash-based services.

Again, whether it's shockwave or laser or dry needling or, uh, g clinic, gym hybrid, but built good systems around it and. And, and it seems like those are the ones that are really thriving in a lot of ways. It's not easy, but we're seeing a lot of good chiropractors do it. And, and that caught me off guard, to be honest.

Brennan Donahue DC: I didn't, uh, yeah, me too. Didn't, I wasn't expecting that that was gonna be one of the, uh, outcomes. I kinda, at that point, I was [00:15:00] really leaning into chopping one insurance a year until I was out. Mm-hmm. I think that's also the fun part about growth and the field goal. It's like, it kind of moves and. Uh mm-hmm.

You have all these different avenues along the way, and when you start going down the road, it's easy to kind of switch directions if that's the route you decide to go. Yeah. And, and you know, the, the thing about it, again, I'm not here saying like everybody should be in network with insurance, but the problem is, is if, 'cause I, I get some chiropractors that would say, I'm, I'm in network with insurance, but I want to go out and network.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And I'm like, all right, well, why don't we first try. To see if you can successfully do add-on services to your patient, you know, some of the patients that need it in your in-network practice. Because if you can't do that, good luck going outta network with insurance and going cash and making it work.

Right. Like Right, right. That's, it's, it's a whole different dialogue that has to happen with that patient on that day. Yeah. And if you can't master it on a small level and you, you put all your eggs in that basket, I mean it mm-hmm. That could be a really big. A big struggle and [00:16:00] barrier for people to break through.

It can. Not to say that it hasn't been done right, but I, I think it can be a barrier. Yeah. I just think it takes the same skillset to be outta network that it does, to do good with, uh, being in network with add-on services. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And so Good way it works. So, um, you know, you kind of pick your poison there for sure.

Uh, but, uh, no, it's exciting to see your vision. And I know one of the things that you did. Uh, you took on something challenging. I wanted to, I kind of thought of it when I mentioned your clinic name was, uh, you did a big rebrand. What was that, five years ago now? Four years ago? Yeah. I, I, I can't even remember to be honest with you.

Brennan Donahue DC: Somewhere in that four to five year, you still have t from it. Yeah. You know, um, it was my original, uh, practice name was Donahue Chiropractic. Right. Yeah. And it was. At the time I did that based on location. And this, this is is an ego, but I was going into a town that I had gone to high school in, grew up in grade school.

My family had been around and [00:17:00] has connections. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was a good way to start the practice. But yeah, I then start, once we got enough, uh, substance to this thing, I was like, okay, now I need to start thinking long term. If I bring on an associate. I don't want them to be pigeonholed under the name Donahue, right?

Mm-hmm. I want it to be, we're now a brand and we run a practice style together as a unit and we grow and long term, sure there's exit strategy in mind, um, of sales and things like that. But yeah, we undertook that and luckily we. We came out alive. It's funny you, you pull up a piece of paper like a, a doctor's note for a student.

Mm-hmm. And that's a year in, and it still says Donahue Chiropractic. I'm like, all right guys, we missed that one. Let's get that updated. You know, there's little things That's a point. Show ups a good point. Yeah. When you rebrand something that's gonna happen, you just gotta tackle it as you see it come up.

Dr. Kevin Christie: So That's right. Um, awesome man. And I know being in the Mastermind, I think one of the things I do require for our coaches is [00:18:00] to be in the Mastermind because it's a continual education for us. I know it is for me, uh, of, of big thinking chiropractors working together and being able to take some of those and then, uh, help.

With the clients that you, that you do coach. But, uh, let's, let's transition over to, uh, you know, you've been been coaching now. What are some of the things you're getting, gaining, some insights from that. What are you enjoying from it? Uh, what are some of your thoughts around that? Man, I, it's, uh, a little bit, being on the other side is really enjoyable 'cause I'm also learning what's going well for other.

Brennan Donahue DC: Docks in the area, right? And, and not just in the area and in, in the United States. Um, and so it's fun taking those wins, but it's also, it's taken me back to the years where. We were trying to build this thing, and it's taken me back to understanding and I can put myself in their shoes of the struggles and things like that.

Mm-hmm. Um, coaching the com the financial commitment at one point was a struggle. Right. Um, mastermind at one point, you know, you sit there and you [00:19:00] kind of weigh in the pros and cons, but, um, I just, a quick example is one of the coaching clients, um. Not necessarily billing for all the services he's doing, and he's giving away free care.

I'm like, dude, that, that was me at one point. And so it's really fun to say you changed that one, one aspect of your practice. That financial income you make that month will cover your coaching expense. And so without changing a single thing, other than making sure you're collecting for all the treatment that you're giving out as a really good clinician.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, that's a big one. And I think, uh, again, you know, whether it's having us other coaches that you and I can. Bounce ideas off. 'cause that's one thing is we have a Slack channel. We're always bouncing ideas off each other or helping each other out on client situations. Where again, the mastermind group is, you can take that confidence.

Okay, yeah, so and so was able to do that. I can, I can do that. And then sometimes you just need to have a sounding board. And the reality of it is, is that like if you look back, 'cause now you're at that 10 year mark, if you look back at your [00:20:00] 10 years of growth. On the, on the grand scheme of it, it looks like there's just nice rise, you know, hockey stick up, but there's been obstacles along the way, no doubt about it.

And that's just inevitable. But to have someone, or somebody around to help you navigate the obstacle so that there is still, the overall upward trajectory is huge. Correct. And I think it's, I've, I've really enjoyed that it's, uh. Trajectory and not necessarily a launch writeup, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that quick launch can lead to its own problems.

Brennan Donahue DC: And can you sustain that if. And that's, I, there's not some golden commitment we're making as coaches that you're gonna make $40,000 more next month. Right. And we, we all see the ads and we hear those things. Um, but I think it's, it's definitely, I envision active SDL being around for a long term. So this is a, a long, slower build of how do we do it the right way that's sustainable and that's, it's kind of what I wanna.

Ingrained in in [00:21:00] some people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think that's what people have to realize. Is this a, it's a process. You know, it's not, yeah, gonna change overnight, but you're setting up really good systems for the long term. You're setting marketing up, you're just building an actual business.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And I think that's. Uh, what we do well with our clients is, is helping you build out frameworks and and systems to, to really build up an actual business that's going to, to grow and, you know, you deserve to ultimately make a professional living. Now, part of it, like you can go back sometime is yeah, you could have taken some money and paid yourself personally and, and you know.

Drive the fancy car, but a certain part of your career, you gotta reinvest that money into growth. So that the way I look at it, like, I'm 46 now and so 21 years in, in my thirties, especially that first half, there was a lot of money that I put back into the business to be able to be where I'm at now. Uh, and yeah, there was mistakes.

I like what Dan Sullivan calls it from strategic [00:22:00] coaches, like sometimes if you lose money on some idea, business wise, it's just research and development. You know, it's a, it's an R. It's an r and d cost. Just say, okay, well that didn't work, but at least I know now. Yep. Try something else or try again.

Brennan Donahue DC: Either way. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What was one of the biggest obstacles that you, over the last 10 years, that you can say that you faced on the hearts? Because I think, I think you can label. Obstacles in two ways for practice growth. There's obstacles. Like I remember when I, when I bought my office real estate in 23, that was a massive obstacle, but it was a good obstacle.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Like, okay, yeah, it's, this is a hard thing worth doing. Versus there's some just like, shit, that was a, that was a really big setback. That was hard. That wasn't good at the time or anything. But uh, what was one of those challenging, hard. Not great obstacles that you can think of over the 10 years.

Brennan Donahue DC: probably one of the biggest obstacles, [00:23:00] and this might not directly answer your question, but um. It is understanding my own patience, right? When I decide on something, I want it now and I wanna do it quick, and I wanna get going and let's rock and roll and, you know, I, I wanted that launch at one point and I still, at times we all do, right?

Mm-hmm. But, um, the patience of. I would go home and I would tell my wife, we're not there. We're not there. And you know, we're still not where I want this thing to be. But, um, and she just kept having to remind me of like, this is, you're in it for the long haul. Like you're, you keep showing up doing the right things.

And so probably one of the obstacles of my own, a little bit of perfectionism involved is probably the way I'll word that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. No, it's a good thing and it's recognizing that is is key for sure.

Brennan Donahue DC: Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: You know, it's, uh, undoubtedly we're all gonna have obstacles and, and it's good to have people around to help out with that.

Brennan Donahue DC: I think that's one of the biggest things is, you know, I've been in sports all my life, and so having a team or having a, a coach or somebody that just kind of ping ideas off and not [00:24:00] feeling like you have to reinvent the wheel every time something kind of falls apart a little bit.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, absolutely. That's why when we do have on a new client, we do a practice audit 'cause we want to really get to know what's going on, what look under the hood.

And, and then we like to ask that Ractor question from Strategic Coach of like, you know, three years from now and 'cause we're. We're not trying to create your vision for you, we're trying to tease out what your vision is, your you and your family, and then help get there. And there's multiple ways of getting there, right?

It's not, it's not just one thing. It's like, oh, you gotta do this, and if you don't practice like this. Then it's not, you're not gonna be successful. This is the only way to do it. You know, there's, there's a lot of way to, ways to slice it. I, that's one of the, um, beauties and challenges of coaching is, is extracting that outta the person and then devising the best plan together to get there, providing resources, uh, to, to help them.

And then, uh, yeah. [00:25:00] You know, being a shoulder to cry on sometimes too.

Brennan Donahue DC: Right. Right. And I, I, I truly love the way it's set up of the practice audit, getting that, that person's individual three-year plan.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Brennan Donahue DC: And then looking at what does their audience look like? Who do they want to target? How do they wanna talk about, you know, their conditions and things like that.

And, um, so I, I really enjoy that, that part of getting to know them before we ever just say this is, you know, it's, it's not as, um. Straight and narrow. This is the only path. Like you were saying, it's okay, now we know you a little bit better. Now we can start trying to figure out what's the biggest domino to start knocking down to, to really watch the acceleration happen.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, as we record this, it's uh, basically April, 2026. Um, you know. It's a lot of, uh, uncertainty out there with ai, with, uh, the economy, with just whatever. There's a lot, there's always uncertainty. Um, uh, there's a famous quote, [00:26:00] it's, uh, may, may, we live in interesting times.

And it is just kind of is like, it's, it, it's. Sometimes exciting, but unnerving to live in exciting times, right? That's right. And I think we, I think we are in an exciting time again, excitement might, uh, have two edge of that, edges of that sword, but it's, uh, I, I think we should be very optimistic. The, uh, with the AI thing is not gonna really impact us in the sense of what we do for a living.

You know, it might impact jobs and impact. Your patients have ability to afford, you know, care, things like that. But I think we can navigate all that. Um, and having a vision allows you to navigate challenging times, whether it is, uh, you know, circumstantial in, in, in the. In the country or in your town or, or whatever, or technology, but also just the obstacles within your own practice and sometimes in your own personal life.

'cause that's, that's just the, I mean, the biggest [00:27:00] challenge of being a a we're kind of like a micro business owner, right? Not even a small business owner as chiropractors, is that, uh, you know, the personal does bleed into the business and the business does bleed into the personal and it's hard to separate the two and you gotta navigate it.

And it's really just hard to do that on your own.

Brennan Donahue DC: I think so too. You know, and I think that's where, at a few levels is that's where definitely our bookkeeper comes into play and helps us kind of navigate that. Mm-hmm. I, I've removed myself from that to make sure that there's, I'm in less control of tho that bleed over, you know?

Yeah. There's other people that kind of back into that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And you've done a great job of delegating over the years. I think that's something that I've seen you grow with and that does take a level of leadership to get, get good at that.

Brennan Donahue DC: Yeah. I think, uh. Leadership and just, it also takes time to reflect back, to make sure at times it is getting done right.

Right. That doesn't mean I'm micromanaging, but um, it's, can we hold our standard? Right? We set the standard. Can we hold the standard? Um, [00:28:00] oftentimes once a year I review the simple things of I, if a patient can see it. So can I, you know, or if you see it, the patient can see it. Don't leave trash in the corner.

If the bathroom's a mess, clean that up. Like I'm, I'm kind of big on those little things and just review those once a year. That way everybody knows it. It's, uh. Just that is our standard and that is what we expect as a whole, and it, it, it just leads to a much smoother system throughout the process.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I'm excited to hang out with you in Santa Fe, New Mexico. I think that's the next time you and I will be in person together for our West Mastermind.

Brennan Donahue DC: Looking forward to it. I haven't been to the city before, so.

Dr. Kevin Christie: You made the transition. You made the transition from the east to the west, and uh, it's been fun having you over there.

And we'll have Lindsay Muma as our, uh, guest presenter and, and that's gonna be a fun, a fun weekend of learning and, uh, a cool little city. Never been there either.

Brennan Donahue DC: Looking forward to it. I loved when Lindsay presents, she always said, kind of brings that energy to the, to the, to the stage, doesn't

Dr. Kevin Christie: she? Oh yeah.

Absolutely. So, well, Brendan, [00:29:00] this has been fun to, to catch up again and just get a kind of a update since the last time you were on the show and then have you kind of share your story a little bit of how you got from where you started to now, uh, a coaching chiropractors. And it's been fun to see your, your growth with that.

Brennan Donahue DC: Fantastic. Thanks for having me. And, uh, it's been fun along the journey and looking forward to what's to come.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And obviously if, if you're listening and you and you need some help, uh, uh, we do have some room on Brennan's schedule for, for new clients, and Ashley and Kurt and myself are close to capacity.

Uh, I know I'm at capacity. I think Kurt's close and Ashley's at capacity are close. So we've got some room there and we'd, uh, love to have you join us.

Brennan Donahue DC: Looking forward to it. Thanks.

EPISODE 472: How to work with Professional and Amateur Athletes with FICS

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm excited to bring an interview with two gentlemen, Dr. Martin Isaksson and Dr. Brian Nook. They are both of the International Federation of Sports Chiropractic. Uh, you will hear us call it FICS, and I know you're thinking.

How does FICS equal International Federation of Sports Chiropractic and all you need to know that means it's international. So they are international. Um, and so the FICS is, uh, not the English, uh, acronym, so to, it is a international body and they're doing amazing things and I wanted to bring them on to dive into it.

And we, we talk more about just. What FICS does. We talk a little bit about that, but we really dive into, um, some interesting topics within being a chiropractor and the longevity of being a chiropractor, finding purpose within it, uh, creating [00:01:00] your expertise, working as a team, working with high level athletes.

So we really dive into a lot of great topics and they bring great information. Uh, before we do that, I just wanna make mention a couple things is we do have. Our collaboration with Cairo Health, USA, I use 'em in my practice. We implement 'em this year and it's been great. Allow us to have a compliant discount plan and it's been a win-win for our practice and our patients.

And um, it's been really nice to have that. And if you're looking to, uh, make sure you're compliant with a discounted plan, you are offering certain services that are of. Particular cash rate and you're concerned with the dual fee schedule situation, this solves that. So just go to cairo health usa.com, let 'em know that uh, I sent you there and go from there.

The other thing I wanted to make mention is you can still, we have some spots available for the London Masterclass. Uh, Dr. Chris Chippendale and myself, we are doing a patient experience [00:02:00] masterclass on June 20th. 2026 in London. Uh, Chris, we'll talk from 9:00 AM to 12 on the doctor patient communication experience.

And then I'll be doing the afternoon session from one to 4:00 PM on service versus hospitality and also marketing essentials. And then from four to five you'll be heads down work and we'll help with you work with you on building your new patient experience. So you'll actually leave with a new.

Experience for your patients and you will implement into your practice. And that is June 20th. You can still sign up. Um, you know, we're excited. We've got a class going. We've got a good amount of registrations and we are pumped to do that. It's my first time speaking internationally and looking forward to doing it.

So if you're over, uh, in the, uh, European, or if you wanna travel over there, you can make a vacation of it like I am. Uh, we'd love to have you there. So go to Bitly, so BIT [00:03:00] ly slash MCM UK 26. We'll put that in the show notes as well. We'd love to have you there and it's a very reasonable price and I believe you will get a ton out of it.

Um, alright. Without further ado, here is my interview with Martin Isaksson and Brian Nook.

Dr. Kevin Christie: We got a little bit of a unique episode today where we got two gentlemen on here where we're gonna dive into really the benefits of, uh, treating at events, going to events, working, and as a team, what that does for you clinically, what that does for your practice and your standing in the, in the community.

And then just overall, I think a increased satisfaction, uh, in. Your profession. I know it has for me. But before we dive into that, I wanna do a couple introductions here. So, uh, Martin, start off you with where you're at, a little bit of your background, and then we'll go over to Brian.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: Thank you very much, Kevin.

Um, so my name is Martin Isaksson . Um, I, uh, do [00:04:00] have two private practices in Sweden, uh, on the west coast, quite south of Sweden. Um, been working since 2013, since I graduated from Murdoch University in West. In Australia, Perth. Um, and ever since then, my passion has driven me towards the sports chiropractic field.

Um, given the opportunity to, to work with FICS early on. Um, I started out in leadership already in 2014 and since then I'm literally climbed the ladder from, from a board member to second vice president to first vice president, and now I'm the president of x. So it's been, uh, it's been one, uh, amazing rollercoaster and uh, yeah, you just keep on tagging on.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I love it. That's great. That's, uh, we got a whole podcast on that, uh, path there. I love it. I love it. Thank you. And then on to you, Brian.

Brian Nook: Uh, thanks Kevin. Uh, Brian Dun, uh, from Perth, Australia. Um, been involved in, in chiropractic since, [00:05:00] uh, 1983. Graduating from Northwestern in Minneapolis. Practiced for many years in a little town in Iowa.

Uh, spent a little time in South Africa teaching at, uh, the institution down there and then ended up at Murdoch University in Perth, um, and some at Palmer West and a little time in Sydney. Um, so I've gone from clinician to , academia to administration, uh, all the time being involved in FICS, uh, uh, in various.

Different positions. Uh, currently the Secretary General of, of FICS, and, uh, uh, excited to talk about, uh, our profession and, and the opportunities that are there.

Dr. Kevin Christie: How long ago did you end up in Australia?

Brian Nook: Moved here in 2003. Um, to help start actually the chiropractic program at Murdoch University, um, came over thinking I was gonna work on the curriculum, uh, for technique, uh, and the [00:06:00] training.

Uh, quite unique opportunity to be able to build a chiropractic program in a university. Uh, but shortly in thereafter, he ended up being the dean for six years. Um, and the head of the program added sports science and exercise fizz, and then got headhunted for the head of a college in Sydney for four years before ending up at Palmer West for the last nine until we just finished that one up and came back to Perth last year.

So.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Awesome. Love it. Love it. So, uh, FICS International Federation of Sports Chiropractic. I'll let, uh, one of you, uh, take the floor here to just, uh, give us a little bit of a breakdown of, of what that is exactly, and a little bit of the background and kind of mission of FICS.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: A hundred percent. So FICS is obviously the Federation of International Sports Chiropractic.

Um, our vision is that every athlete deserves access to sports chiropractic. So a lot of, uh, about the quality given the athletes the [00:07:00] opportunity to have chiropractic care, um, which I think. Paramount. If you look at the broader scheme of, of world, of sport, uh, especially now when we have great conversations with the IOC, we have great conversations with a lot of different sporting federations across the globe.

Um, we've been active since, uh, 1987. Um, when, when this. Um, fantastic Federation started and there's obviously been a lot of precedence, um, before me. So I'm really standing on the shoulders of giants if I'm gonna be totally honest. Um, and once when I picked it up a few years ago, my goal was to, um, give it back in even better, um, standard than I found it.

Inso. Um, that's what we've been uh, doing ever since. But, um, we've. Done exceedingly well over the past six years, I would say. Um, we really refined the organization, um, created a lot more, uh, structure to the organization in terms of governance, in terms of opportunities for our chiropractor. And we [00:08:00] do, uh, a lot of events.

Every year for different federations. And I think that now we're somewhere around, um, having contract with, you can correct me if I'm wrong, Brian, but I think we're almost at, um, 25 federations that we have, uh, contracts with and uh, obviously a lot of MOUs with, um, with other, um, organizations as well and, and uh, academic institutions.

So, um, FICS is thriving, that's for sure. Um, and, um, and Brian had you, you've been part of FICS since, uh, more or less you were born. So, I mean, you have a lot more, more of the, of the history than I do. Um, even though that's, um, it's always warns me, uh, around the heart when, when we have a lot of the precedents and the sections and, um, uh, reaching outers and, and really, um, really happy to see the progress FICS is making.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Brian, tell, tell us still above the history, that'd be great.

Brian Nook: Well, the history started [00:09:00] with, uh, was a brainchild of a group of people that, uh, really met, uh, with the World Federation of Chiropractic and had a strong interest in sports chiropractic, um, and also had exposed themself to the world of sport, uh, and that there was, they found that there was a Federation of Sports Medicine and they said it's called FIMS for short.

Um, and they said, well, if. Films exist. Why shouldn't sports chiropractic exist? And a group of them met and they organized and got the, the headquarters put together and the bylaws put together. And that was the birth of, of sports chiropractic. Uh, and it was really the, the foresight of those individuals, uh, to lay that groundwork and, and get it started.

Um, the headquarters at first were, were in America, in New Jersey, and then, uh, they now are reside in Anne Switzerland, which is really the, the, uh, headquarters for most of [00:10:00] the world of sport from both, not only the Olympics, but international sports federations. And so that's where our, uh, headquarters are, uh, officially.

Um, and then it's just grown from there. It's, it's gone from. Uh, I think it started really with the idea of getting our profession more involved in the world of sport, both. At a national level with hopefully getting chiropractors at the Olympics because at that time, uh, back in the eighties, very few chiropractors went with Olympic teams.

Even, even America. There'd only been a couple of chiropractors that had gone, uh, back in the, uh, early eighties. Um, and, and, uh, it was just budding at that point. Mm-hmm. And so it was really, I think, started with connecting to get chiropractors with different nations, Olympic teams, but then it broadened out from that as it shouldn't [00:11:00] just be the Olympics, it should be the world of sport.

And sport and activity, and it, it goes, we talk, talk a lot within FICS about the breadth and depth, the breadth of reaching across different sporting federations in various levels and areas. But it's also the depth working at the, the local level, the club level, the, the, the state, the national. And then the international level, that's where our profession really needs to, to belong and be part of.

Um, and it's interesting that, you know, FICSes, uh, has been around for quite some time. Um, and sports physical therapy has, has just now organized and gotten recognized. So it's all coming together where the different groups are starting to be recognized, which is really good.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it is. And, and I'm going to share a little bit, I've, I've been pricing for 21 years now, and I've kind of had a, a double life within the profession.

A lot of people maybe now [00:12:00] know me through MCM and, and kind of practiced growth for, for chiropractors. But my, my kind of first half was all I was fully knee deep in, in the world of, of sports chiropractic. And I'll get a lot of, um, younger dcs, younger chiropractors and, and sometimes physios ask me like, how do you.

How do I get to where I position myself well into treating athletes and all that, and a lot of them just think that they can. Graduate with a certain skillset and say they treat, treat athletes, hang a shingle up, and then it's gonna happen for 'em and, and for some it does, you know, and then I'm, and I don't say that to, to denigrate anybody's, uh, vision and idea, uh, as a young dc, but.

You really have to get involved. And I was fortunate enough, uh, because actually, you know, I, I didn't know of FICS in 2005, 2006 when I graduated. I do think you guys are doing a great job over the last few years because I started to see really good chiropractors who are members [00:13:00] and they're traveling. I'm like, wow, that looks really, really cool.

I, I didn't know about that 20 years ago, but I was fortunate to where, um, I got a lot of opportunities. Um. To, to go to the NFL combine for 12 years. I worked on the PGA tour for a year, uh, through Titleist and their TPI program. And so I had these events. I, I did work in Ironman, uh, event through active release, and a lot of those are, they either don't exist anymore or that's just very, very.

Challenging to get that opportunity, but what it did for me was, was a few things, and this is what I want to touch on with you guys, was as I started going to events. It definitely helped me clinically. Um, it, it helped me, uh, with better teamwork with other providers and, and that definitely transcended into my community.

Uh, I also felt a sense of community working with other providers in a. In an important type of setting, right? [00:14:00] That's, uh, not that our own private practice isn't important, but when you go to an event and you've got these high level athletes trying to accomplish something that's rare, you feel something about that, that's pretty, pretty neat.

And then I would say lastly, you know, as a byproduct of it, it did help me. Grow my own practice within my community because people's like, oh, you're traveling to these types of events, working with these types of athletes that has a, has the ability for people to put you, uh, kind of a, a perceived value of treating sports injuries.

And, and that's what I got out of it, which I thought was great. And I want to, I want to dive into that a little bit. So the first thing I want to do is I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to Martin here. And I want to, um, give us the, a, a picture of what it's like for some of the, the docs that are going out, working events.

What are some of the things they're doing, what are some of the places they're going? What are some of the sports? Just give us a little bit of a picture of what it looks like when you do get to [00:15:00] go to these events. A

Dr. Martin Isaksson: hundred percent. I mean, the, the, I think the biggest, um, the biggest thing about going to all these events is the community of service.

You get an opportunity to really get, meet and greet people from across the globe. Obviously all the athletes that come from every part of the, of the world. You're not working with a specific team. You're there for all athletes regardless of where they come from in the world. Secondly, to that, you get a chance to work with your colleagues who also come from all parts of the world.

And when you bring those things together and you see, I mean, I, I would go to any event. Any time of the day rather than to go a specific seminar for a specific technique. And why is that? Because I get a chance to spend multiple days with extremely good sports carros that does some extremely interesting stuff to patients and the things that they have acquired over a very long time.[00:16:00]

And, and. The beauty of it is that everyone is happy to help. Everyone is happy to share. And I think that is what brings everyone together. And it's almost, it becomes almost like a drug. You do, you do one and you just like, when when do I sign up for the next one? Uh, and that is, I think is the beauty of going to an event.

Now, secondly to that, you obviously have a lot of hoops and other things that you have to go, you have to apply for going to events. If you go to us, you have to then be selected for the team. You then have to get yourself there. And if. Playing usually somewhere across the globe. Um, you get there, you might be jet lagged.

You got your bench, you got your, your, your stuff, your head in right away. Your head is on, on fire. Um, you've researched the sport you're going to, 'cause there's different obviously, uh, injuries for different sports. Um, and, and you get all that. Um. Wrapped in. And once you get there and you talk to the, to the guys and you talk to the, the, the paramedics and you have all these conversations with all these different professions [00:17:00] and you really feel like you're part of the team.

Mm-hmm. And that team spirit, I think means so much for everyone that goes. Um, and, and really that's, as I said before, that's the drug.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. No, it is, and I, I look back on some of those memories of like, what you said is, you know, traveling and, and doing all that. And it was like, wow, that was a lot of fun. I know, like I, uh, I worked in an event where I had half day, a couple of half days, and I got to go like, do this.

Crazy kayaking down this river and doing all this, like I never would've done it. You know? Like that was just a little bit of a, a byproduct. But, uh, to your, to your point, um, on the clinical side, the things you do learn from other clinicians in a setting where they're wanting you to get better, because we get stuck on an island in our clinics, right?

Dr. Martin Isaksson: Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And if you try to call up a chiropractor that was 10 minutes from you to learn from him or her, she's probably like, nah, I'm not gonna do that. Right. But yeah, it, the things you do learn, and sometimes you [00:18:00] can correct me if I'm wrong, and this setting is, it's not just learning from other sports chiropractors.

You're learning from other types of, uh, providers as well. Right.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's so many times that, that you've picked up things that, and, and especially a lot of times how people think. And I think that's fascinates me a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, people have a clinical mind, obviously, and it might be slightly different to yours, but the way they think is just, it just ignites certain things in your brain and you think, oh, wait a minute.

I got a, I got a patient at home that, that in my practice that just have that issue right now. I, I wanna try that out on Monday.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: And I think that is, that is, that is gold. That is a golden nuggets right there.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And it's a big part of, we mentioned earlier of like, you know, kind of growing your practice, you're going to get better clinically and get results, better results.

Uh, and that obviously is a huge practice grower. Uh, and then, you know, uh, if you got Facebook, Instagram, whatever, TikTok, uh, [00:19:00] what it is, and you're, you're sharing some, uh, you're, you're in Japan working somewhere, you know, and doing this like, wow, this. This gal's a legitimate sports chiropractor. She's all the way in Japan working with these athletes.

And then, you know, certain things you can do to, uh, elegantly promote the fact that yeah, you, you do work with high level athletes and you do work with FICS. Um, you know, and, and, and that's not just something that you guys let anybody, uh, go and do. And so I want to, I do want to tackle this, Brian, what, what does it take to become a member of FICS?

Get to the point where. Um, you can work events and, and travel. Uh, what does that look like?

Brian Nook: Uh, well, first of all, to be a member, uh, is to be a member either through your National Chiropractic Sports Council or like in, in the USA. Now we have our Regional Chiropractic Sports Council, uh, which you can, uh, literally just become a member with.

Um, the fees [00:20:00] are nominal, I would say, uh, anything from 30 to 60 Swiss francs. Uh, so we're not trying to make money off of our members. We need to do that otherwise. So once you're a member, then, uh, also you need to do, uh, the educational, uh, requirement, which is our International Certified Sports Chiropractic, our ICSC.

Um, that is a requirement that has actually put on us by the international federations. They require our docs to have, and we have opened it up that if you've completed part of it and you're in the process of completing it, you can go with a mentor to an event while you're actually still doing it. Uh, because we've, we value you getting that experience.

It's part of it. Uh, so once you've got your ICSC, uh, then, uh, we've opened up a, a portal, uh, provider pool, uh, which you put your name into. You look at the, we have over 30, uh, events going [00:21:00] on this year. Um, we have two going on just in the last weekend. Um, you put in onto that pool and you, you say which events that you, you can prioritize which events you're really interested in.

Yeah. It then goes through a selection process within the Games commission, uh, which we pick. And when we're picking what we're trying to do is, is, um, and I want to assure this. It is not a good old club. Uh, we are trying to take mentors with new people because that's our legacy. Our bigger events, we do have tiered events, our multi-sport events.

Yes. Then a lot of times we need those, those more veteran providers. But our world championships, um, national championships, those types of things, uh, we are always trying to put. A veteran with a mentor, uh, or a mentee, so that we get those, that building those teams as we go. Um, and then that's [00:22:00] it. You're, you're off and running.

Um, just a little thing too about the practice and, and some of the, I'd love to tell a bit about the stories of the people that you meet. Yep. The very first world games that we worked was in 2005 in Burg, Germany. And, uh, we had a fabulous team there. It was our first World Games. We had no idea what we were doing, to be honest.

Um, but we, we evidently pulled it off because we've been doing it since then. And one of the individuals that we met was an orthopedic surgeon, uh, from Germany. She's a younger lady, and she just got absolutely fascinated with our team and what we were doing. So much so that she left her practice and went on and studied chiropractic and is currently dually qualified.

So not only do we learn. Yeah, we also have the ability to teach others. And oftentimes you learn the most when you teach, which is true. Uh, I've, and that was just a little bit of a story about that, and for me. Uh, I [00:23:00] agree. Building the practice. I looked back, I walked out of my practice for oftentimes several weeks at a time.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Brian Nook: My cashflow, because I didn't have an associate at that time. Yes. Went down, but when I went back, I was busier before I left because my patients were really excited about how I got to go to this and what happened with that. What I was going to, and they wanted to know what happened when I got back.

Yeah. And so I never actually lost income. I actually gained income. Mm-hmm. But I am honest, the cash flow did dip, but the income actually stayed. That was just my experience by going there.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I'm gonna,

Brian Nook: my marketing investment is what

Dr. Kevin Christie: I. I want to touch on that, and then I'm gonna throw it over to you, Martin, and, and I want to hear a little bit of, some, some feedback you've guys gotten from the athletes that have experienced this.

But before we do, um, one of the things that I try to tell chiropractors is, you know, on the financial side, whatever is, is have a, have a practice and strategy of [00:24:00] reinvesting in yourself. And this is an, this is a business investment, so you know, you run it through the business, whether it's uh, you know, your flight and your rooming and all that to get there.

It's all, it's all business expense. Obviously. I like to prepare for that, what we call through like a sinking fund. So if you know. Let's just may say it might cost you a few thousand dollars or whatever, give or take, uh, plan ahead for that. You know, every month put 500 or a thousand from business into a, a separate account to, to earmark that.

And then maybe even like what I used to do, I. I would be gone for a week for the, on the PGA event, I did the one year, I did like seven events. It was like seven weeks. I, I would, um, I, I would say, okay, a week of income in my business is X amount. I would also put that amount in there, and then I would inject that in my operating account when I would leave.

So I would have the peace of mind that I was like, okay, I prepared for this. I'm not worried about the money of it. I know in the long run this is gonna be beneficial and, and it [00:25:00] has been. Right. So I want. People listening is that, you know, just a, you gotta be reinvesting in yourself every year to get better and all things, and this is one of 'em.

And then B, there are financial strategies you can do to prepare for it ahead of time so it doesn't kind of ding you. And then, like you said, Brian, you're gonna. You're going to get the return on it. This is a, a return on investment sort of deal. This isn't just, you know, I'm going on vacation and it's a, a waste of money.

This is got a distinct return on investment, which is, which is great. So I wanted to make sure I, I covered that. Now to you, Martin, what are some of the feedback you get from the athletes, you know, getting worked on and evaluated by FICSed members and, and how that's progressed over the years?

Dr. Martin Isaksson: I think, I think this is a, is an interesting question due to the fact that many, many times when we go to our events, there's a lot of people there from countries that has never ever heard of our chiropractic

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yep.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: Have never experienced a, a, an adjustment in [00:26:00] all their life. And, and you know, for a lot of them it, it becomes almost like. You know, we are godsend in our hands because we do things that they've never experienced. They might have just gone to the physio and got, uh, rehabilitation or exercise physiologist, whatever that might be.

They've never had anyone lay their hands on them and, and ally work through the myofascial chains to, uh, adjusting and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think that, um, a lot of times. Um, the, the enjoyment from the athletes that we see are, are through the roof. Um, yeah, we, we did the Csit games, um, which is an AM amateur multisport event.

Um, last year and the, the feedback we we received from the, um, president of the CC games, he said, you, you blew out everyone out of the world. That was, that was, you guys scored the highest of all the services that was provided at the CC games. [00:27:00] And, um, and I said to him, so why do you think that is what you, well.

You, you, you get a chance to look them in the eyes. You get the chance to put your hands on them and you get a chance to get them to experience something they might not have experienced. And secondly, they feel better. Yeah. They feel like they are untouchable. And I think that is such a, as an athlete, you know, you know, if you've ever been an elite athlete yourself, everyone knows that if you, if you get an edge.

You feel invincible. And I think that's what chiropractic gives a lot of people. They feel like, my goodness, my body reacts, I feel strong. I feel, you know, the performance goes up. And we've seen that in research too. Um, and we all know that pain is just the, some words and my fascial shame that doesn't want to perform the way it should.

Brian Nook: When

Dr. Martin Isaksson: we get that body on the table, we work on it. They get up and they feel the [00:28:00] difference. I think that is, that is the, that's the golden one. So, yeah. Um, and that's what we see when we're out all the time. And you get these people obviously coming up with medals and they wanna hang it around your neck and say, you know, you did this and mm-hmm.

Um, I always, I always give all athletes say, I. Did not create that medal. You did? Yeah. The only thing I did was to support you in that endeavor.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's great. Um, Brian, do you have any, anything to add to that on, on some of the feedback you've gotten over the years with athletes?

Brian Nook: Yeah. Well, we co collect research on, uh, all of our events and everything else, and so we're actually trying to codify.

Uh, some of the results that we're talking about and, and one of the things is, is that we, the statistics are telling us that, first of all, we're a very utilized part of the healthcare team, um, uh, at the World Games in, in Birmingham, Alabama. And, and [00:29:00] 2022, uh, over 25% of all the athletes, so over the 3000 athletes are there.

Voluntarily came up and asked for our services. Now, 25% may not sound like a lot, but um, in, at the Olympics, uh, typical healthcare delivery is, uh, for medicine is five to 8%. Physical therapy is 14 to 18%. Uh, so we're, we're, uh, and at the last World Games, I'm still actually analyzing the data. We were again, over, uh, 20%, uh, of the athletes came and saw services.

And what I'm excited about looking at the data is, is that two things really comes out is, is that they want our services and. It's oftentimes fitting exactly what Martin said our mission was, was an equitable and level playing field. Because it might be obvious that, yeah, USA and Canada and UK [00:30:00] athletes use our service, but oftentimes it's coming from countries that really have very little or no exposure.

To chiropractic like Poland, like Columbia, like Taiwan, where they still persecute chiropractic in Taiwan. So it's, and they become one of the top five countries that actually utilize the service. So we are filling that, that very important pillar within the International Olympic Committee movement of an equal, equal, and level playing field for all, which I think that's really cool to see that happen.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I love it. And part of what excites me about our profession, 'cause I know a lot of people will get down on this, that and the other thing, whether it's in the states, the insurance reimbursement or, or whatever. I can, I could probably name five things, but I'm excited because. The opportunities that chiropractors do have now that didn't exist even when I graduated, is really, uh, it's substantial.

I've had some people on the podcast over the years [00:31:00] where we talk about that and highlight certain situations where, whether it's hospital systems bringing on chiropractic or, uh, I actually had clinics inside a large corporations down here in Florida for a while, you know, that was cool. And then obviously every sports team in the States, I know, like, seems like they have a.

Chiropractor. So the, the when, when groups like FICS and others have these opportunities to commingle with other types of orthopedists like you mentioned and other types of athletes and, and within other countries, the whole thing rises up and you get. Such a higher level of opportunity and recognition, uh, as a, as a chiropractor, which is, which is great.

And I, and I love that and I commend you two for, for helping with that. Um, the, the next thing I want to segue into, and I'm gonna kind of go over a little bit of a preamble here, and then let. I'll let you guys take it from there. But, uh, there's a gentleman, Cal Newport, and he's written some books. He's got a podcast, but he, he wrote a book, [00:32:00] uh, called Deep Work that, that everybody, uh, kind of references and knows a lot about, but he has this whole concept called The Deep Life and there's really like four key components of it.

It's, uh, you know, and he called kind of the four Cs and, and it's, uh, you know, everything from. Uh, what he calls constitution, which is your health, uh, to one of 'em is, is your craft, right? And he, and he, he talks a lot about to have a, have a deep life is to have a craft that you love working on and getting better and really finding a lot of purpose and meaning.

And I know a lot of people tend to suffer because they don't really get a lot outta their career or their craft per se, and it gives them. Not a whole lot. Right. And I think as chiropractors we're unique in the sense that, uh, we have a very strong opportunity to make our craft something that gives us a, a ton of meaning and purpose and growth over years.

And, but there's a lot of chiropractors that are struggling with finding [00:33:00] that. Um, and, and I, and I think that's something that's. Unfortunate, right? And to lay that as the, as the context. What I've found, a lot of the chiropractors that I've talked to over years that have had a certain amount of years under their belt, right, their, their 20, 30, 40 years into this, was that they were able to find that purpose within their craft that kept them growing and having a growth mindset and, and gave them a lot of purpose.

And for a lot of people. They may be able to get that in their private practice only. But for a lot of carpenters I've talked to, they love having a private practice and then they love teaching this or they love going to this, or they love this or you know, there's a lot of cool ancillary things we can get out of our profession, which is, which is great.

And I, and I, and I just implore chiropractors that are listening if they haven't found yet. What is exciting them about their craft? It could be something like this, and I [00:34:00] know being able to work with athletes, being part of a group like this, getting better clinically traveling, seeing the world, seeing how different sports in different countries operate can really be that excitement for you.

So I want to, I want to give each of you an opportunity. To share how this has helped you, you know, being involved with FICS, uh, being involved with the athletes, how that's kind of, uh, extended your excitement about this career and what you're doing and what you're excited about. So, uh, Martin, I'm gonna start with you and then we'll go to Brian.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: Awesome. Well, I think for me, um, because FICS is a volunteer organization, um, that has always been something that's that that driven me, um, in the sense of, I think that when you do volunteer work, um, you don't do it for the money, you don't do it for the fame, you don't do it really for anything more than to increase the awareness for the profession.

And when you work for something bigger than yourself. [00:35:00] Like a lot of people talk about faith. Faith is bigger than yourself. Same thing here in my perspective is that I work for something bigger than myself. I'm trying to push forward this amazing, awesome, um, uh, profession forward and showcase the opportunities that assist in it.

Um, I mean, I've been been teaching for effects in the our CSC since 2018. I've been traveling around the world doing that. I've been traveling around doing more than I think I'm up to about 30. 30 world championships in 14 different sports. Um, I've been doing so much of that stuff everywhere and there is not one second of that that I would ever say, go back and say, nah, I, I could skip that because I've always learned something, always been able to give back.

And at the end of the day when I put my head on my pillow and sweat, same thing when I, you know, when you are working a whole day in practice, you want to. Feel good about yourself. You want to feel good about the stuff that [00:36:00] you've been able to do. And I think that's where FICS for me, has filled that void of, of, um, importance of, of giving back.

And, and I think that's the beauty of, of, of what we can do.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I love it. And you know, and going back to like, even in private practices, good as it can be. And, uh, you know, and, and a lot of people love it. Sometimes if you're not careful, it can get mundane. Uh, and, and having that, having that second thing or that outlet outside of that, that is frankly in the grand scale of humanity, so rare of how many people can actually do what we do.

Right? Yeah. Uh, to be able to do that, it's, uh, it's exciting when you're doing it. They kind of like say like the best, one of the best parts about taking vacations in general is just the fact that you look forward to it for so long. It's like part of the vacation. It's the same thing with these types of events.

It's like what's great about the event is not just only being there, but it's actually looking forward to, uh, being there and it kind of gets you a little bit excited and, uh, can break that, that um, [00:37:00] monotony of private practice sometimes. Right.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Now how about you, Brian?

What's it meant for you as far as, uh, you know, how, how many years have you been practicing now you said 83, was it that you graduated?

Brian Nook: 83? Yeah, let's just put it past 40. So, yeah, a long time. No, I think this topic is, is very important because a lot of people, and I've, in my lecturing, I've often asked, um, you know, how many people honestly have hit that time where all of a sudden practice got easy, uh, and as you said, mundane.

Um, and it's funny, it's usually about seven years. Seven years in all in practice, you get past a, you know, am I gonna handle what walks into the office? And then you go, well, even if I don't know what it is, I know what to do, I can get it where it needs to go to, I can handle. I pretty much anything that walks in and then the boredom sits in and I've watched people, they all of a sudden then become super investors or [00:38:00] buy, you know this, or all of a sudden they're on the golf course or they're into a plane or a boat or whatever else they get that's distracted and hopefully not something else that they shouldn't be distracted in.

And that's the problem. And so I think some people are very satisfied working in a small town. I worked in a very small town, had a practice, and they're comfortable there and they make it work. That's fantastic.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Brian Nook: These types of things has got to fit the individual. I think there are opportunities to where, yes, w what I found with FICS is not only did it energize and help me in my daily practice and back in practice, it actually changed my life.

It caused me to move to South Africa and, and help to establish sports chiropractic in, in that area, and, and my family got to experience that too. Mm-hmm. It brought me back to my practice in Iowa. Then it, it led me into actually going to Australia and that all started with my network and, and opportunities that came [00:39:00] out of the people that I met.

And FICS how I got to go to the Olympics was because I went to an event and met the right person that then gave me the invitation to go. It's, it's about developing that network. Sometimes foolishly, bravely. There's a fine line there. Taking an opportunity and, and seeing what opens up. But it, it's, it's been a, a, a great ride.

And, and if it's what people are interested in, geez, I'd encourage them to tip their toe in. We tell 'em if you can go to one event a year,

Dr. Kevin Christie: right.

Brian Nook: As you said, there's financial ways in which you can do it. We've got one of our, uh, members, it's uh, in his seventies. He's even older than me. Um, and, hi, this is now his retirement plan.

He actually pick the different events that he wants to go to, where he wants to go to. He goes over it, he writes the whole thing off, and then he tours around with his daughter or his wife and, and sees the country that he is in. I'm like, sign me [00:40:00] up. This is what I wanna do when I retire this. Just go and do these different events and, and get a chance to see the rest of the world and spend it with my family.

What a great way to go.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And the treat is. You know, that's what I was gonna say. It really is, is like you're, you're getting so many benefits out of it. Um, and it just makes for a very interesting career. Right. And I think not enough people have the opportunity to have an interesting career. And we do. And I think, uh, maybe some chiropractors that are struggling to, to take that kind of leap.

To help grow themselves a little bit more. This could be the, the step for them to do it. I think the other thing to take from this is, and I know Martin you mentioned about like giving and, and there, you know, it's like when you do give, and this is a form of, of giving, you do receive and, and you will in many ways, not just, um, financially, but also just it's that rewarding, uh, part of what a career can be.

And then like, you know, I love, I always love. Because chiropractors, I think sometimes [00:41:00] struggle to vision what the, the back half of their career is gonna be like. Right. And you mentioned you had a great story there with someone with their, their back half of their career. They really tied it into retirement.

That's pretty neat.

Brian Nook: Yep. Well, in fact, that individual. Got his associate by one of our research assistants that came to an event that actually then opened it up even more. So it all came from his involvement at one of our sporting events, and then it just led from there. And I just want to pick up altruism and, and altruistic events.

Uh, is, is something unique or I think we get tied up and everything has to be transactional. Um. And when you do a non-transactional thing, you get something completely different. And um, I know in sports chiropractic, there's a lot of places where you can go and get paid to work with a team and so on.

Highly support that. I think that's fantastic. We need to be there. But there's also stuff that can be done that [00:42:00] is like this, uh, that, that doesn't take that constant commitment. But hey, a week, a weekend. And

Dr. Kevin Christie: an

Brian Nook: adventure.

Dr. Kevin Christie: What a great way to come and a key difference on that, Brian. And then I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna wrap it up and Martin, you're gonna let us know where people can find out more about FICS.

But one of the, the key differences there is reactive versus proactive, right? So if you're sitting around hoping that the local university makes you the team chiropractor or the pro team or whatever. That could, that could take decades. Right? Um, and it's a lot of times it's luck. It's definitely skill.

You have to have the skill, but it also meets timing and luck. Like the, the couple opportunities I had when I look back on it, I was like, wow, there was a lot of luck and it was kind of a react reaction of an opportunity that I got. This is being proactive, right? Like you, you can take the reins on this, you can, you can get certified, you can sign up, you can put your name in the hat and you can start doing it.

And then when you're proactive like that, you're gonna get a lot of [00:43:00] strategic byproducts like. You know, meeting other providers that ultimately might refer people to you in your clinic or you get opportunity that a, that a team does open up and you get highly recommended because you have this background and now opportunity meets, meets preparation.

So I, I want people to understand that this is a. A proactive approach to, to, to taking the bull by the horns versus hoping that you're gonna be the, you know, Atlanta Braves team, chiropractor. That's a hard one. I've, I'm still waiting to be the Miami Dolphins team chiropractor and it's 20 years later. So, uh,

Brian Nook: and, and Kevin, if I can just add also I would like to people to know.

Oftentimes we are really meeting more applicants. It's not like we've got the book is filled and we are often sometimes pleading to find more people. So your odds, let's put it down to a monetary, if you're gonna play the lotto. Getting to go, uh, to one of our events is a high, high [00:44:00] return, um, uh, because we need more.

And hopefully that eventually will change, but your odds ratio is way up there. Um, uh, because we, we don't have enough people to fill all the events that we've got. Uh, we do fill 'em, but we could use a lot more.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It's a testament to the growth and reach that you guys have had over the years that you got so many events and, and, and the need is, is awesome.

And so hopefully we can in, in increase that su supply there. So, uh, Martin, how can, uh, those interested find out more, get, get going on this and, uh. Change some people's lives.

Dr. Martin Isaksson: Absolutely. So one way is obviously connecting, uh, through our webpage FICS sport. Um, that's a great, um, webpage. It gives you a lot of the history, gives you a lot of the events.

We do all our ICSC, um, seminars that we host in different countries and different, um, uh, with different opportunities for that. Um, things like Mexico, if you wanna go there and do your ICSC or if. You want to go down to, um, to [00:45:00] Switzerland now in the summer in Burn, which is a beautiful part of Switzerland, if you wanna do that.

I mean, there's so many different, uh, opportunities if that's what you wanna do. And we are obviously well connected with the, uh, WFC, so we are part of their, um, newsletters that's coming out there. We have our own newsletters that all our members get, and we obviously have the social media. So, uh, we're on Instagram.

We are on Facebook, um, and a bunch of other things. Um, I'm still trying to find someone that's willing to donate their time on TikTok, but maybe one day we'll see that. Not

Dr. Kevin Christie: me, not me,

Dr. Martin Isaksson: but, uh, hey, you know, I've been petitioned for Brian here, so,

but, um, yeah, so we do, um, um, um, exist on all the different platforms, um, and obviously, um, trying to push out our vision and mission. Um, to our members and to everyone else. And, um, and as you said before, I mean the, the opportunities that I've got over so many years of being part of FICS [00:46:00] from, from different teams in, in, in sports, um, to, um, I have a bunch of, um, Olympic athletes that come and see me just because they've seen that I'm being active on social media and so forth, uh, with all the different events.

I mean, it, it's exponential. You start out small and you keep on building that. And, and if you can do what you said before, which I think is a beautiful idea that you put some money away for, for, for it every week or every month. Mm-hmm. I, I think, you know, that is a great investment in yourself. Um, so I think that we've hit really good cues here and, and get people to understand that this is a hundred percent feasible.

Um, and you will a hundred percent not regret it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: No, I love it. Well, gentlemen, this has been great and I appreciate the work you guys are doing for the profession and obviously athletes around the world. Uh, we'll have to have a part two of this sometime. Okay?

Dr. Martin Isaksson: A hundred percent.

EPISODE 473: Bridging the Associate-Owner Chiropractor Divide

Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm going to, uh, narrate or read a blog I wrote for Cairo up titled, bridging the Associate Owner Chiropractor Divide, uh, creating Mutually Beneficial Relationships, and we're gonna dive into that.

Got a lot of good feedback and actually got some questions on it that I will. Clarify at the end. Uh, ironically the morning I come in here to record a couple solo episodes, I get the email with some questions about this particular episode, so that's exciting. We'll, we'll, we'll dive into that. Uh, before we do, I do wanna make mention you still can.

Sign up for our London Patient Experience Masterclass. That's gonna be with Dr. Chris Chippendale and myself. It's a one day masterclass on the patient experience. The early bird is over, but we still have a very reasonable price for you to join us and it's exciting. You know, sometimes you don't know.

This is the first time I've done anything [00:01:00] internationally and you're not sure if people are gonna sign up and if it's gonna happen and, and, uh, you know, we had a. A little slower start to it, but then all of a sudden, boom, we had people signing up and we've got, uh, a nice crew there. We are capped at 25 people.

We do have some slots available, but we, we have an event coming in and, and we're gonna have people there and some really good docs, which has been pretty cool to see those, uh, who have signed up. And so that is going to be June 20th and in the morning session from nine to 12. Chris will talk about the doctor patient communication experience, and then we will have lunch.

Then we'll break break for lunch, and then from one to four I will be talking about service versus hospitality, and then also marketing essentials for the patient experience. And then from four to 5:00 PM we'll be heads down work building your new patient experience. You'll leave there with a new patient experience and you're gonna be right in London.

So check that out. You could. [00:02:00] Go to Bitly, BI t.ly/mcm uk 26. We'll put that in the show notes. We'd love to see you there. You can still sign up, and that is gonna be in, uh, June, on June 20th. So, all right, let's dive in. We've, uh, again, bridging the associate owner chiropractor divide Definitely a struggle out there.

There's no doubt about it, and we want to try to tackle it as best we can. Okay, so let's go. Um, the chiropractic profession faces a persistent challenge, a disconnect between associates seeking me meaningful opportunities. And practice owners struggling to find and retain quality doctors. Uh, this divide creates frustration on both sides and limits growth potential.

The good news, it doesn't have to be that way. Uh, understanding the disconnect. At its core, the associate owner divide comes down to misaligned expectations. Uh, owners often [00:03:00] hire associates expecting them to generate new patient volume and drive growth. While associates may assume their role is primarily to serve existing patients and focus on clinical care, when expectations aren't aligned, tensions appears almost immediately.

This divide is further compounded by. Preparation gaps. Many young chiropractors graduate with strong clinical skills, but limited business knowledge. They may not fully understand what it takes to build and sustain a profitable practice. Conversely, owners sometimes fail to clearly communicate expectations or provide the mentorship and systems needed for success.

The result, uh, great opportunities for young chiropractors can seem scarce. And owners struggle to find associates who can make meaningful con contributions. Bridging this gap requires honest communication, shared understanding, and intentional planning. [00:04:00] I. Financial realities and career positioning. A key factor in aligning expectations is an honest conversation about the return on investment for becoming a chiropractor.

Young chiropractors need realistic insight into income potential. Practice ownership costs and the timeline for building a successful career. Chiropractic school plays a crucial role in preparing graduates, not just clinically, but also for the business realities they'll face for associates. Success goes beyond clinical skill.

Thriving associates demonstrate an ownership mindset. They ask questions about. Patient adherence, marketing effectiveness and operational efficiency rather than simply showing up to treat patients. business literacy curiosity [00:05:00] about practice metrics and initiatives are critical.

Differentiators for owners hiring an associate is a financial and operational commitment. Before bringing on additional doctors, a practice needs a solid economic foundation. Um, certain things here I had written about before, monthly collections. A, a sustainable practice typically generates 30,000 or more per month or 360,000 annually.

Um, it's either that, you know, that and, and above, um, profitability model following approaches like Profit First. Owners should take home roughly 35% in compensation, allocate 10% to profit, and cover all operating expenses and team salaries with the remainder. That's where I had a question, so I'm gonna interject right now on, uh, the graph that was on here.

10% profit, 35% owner's compensation, 60 or 55% operating expenses and [00:06:00] staff salaries. Um, that's, that's like a one. Um, metric from Profit First. So that strategy is from Profit First. Mike Mitz, uh, or Dr. Holly Tucker, someone I always, uh, reference and refer to who can really bridge the gap between being certified in Profit First and as a chiropractor.

So it really works out great. Um, and, and there's different, uh, breakdowns based on revenue models. This is, uh, for, say that 300. And 60,000 or so, that's that. But you can reference, um, the target allocation percentages from Profit first, and that's where that comes from. And it's not a set in stone. That's why oftentimes working with an expert to know the nuances of your practice can be helpful as well.

But it's a really nice model that Profit First lays out. And, and I, I, I stand by it. I love it. Next one. It says, stable team. A core staff and operational systems should already be in [00:07:00] place when considering hiring an associate. Without these elements. Hiring an associate can strain the practice financially and operationally, and the divide persists because quality opportunities remain limited.

All right. What defines a great chiropractic job from the associate perspective of fulfilling chiropractic position includes competitive compensation, mentorship. From an experienced practitioner exposure to diverse patient cases, clinical autonomy and decision-making authority, a clear path for professional growth, associates value transparency, practices that openly share financial metrics and involve associates in strategic discussions.

Foster Trust and help doctors understand the business. Whether they [00:08:00] eventually plan to buy in or simply want to contribute meaningfully. That was where I got another question. As far as, um, sharing financial metrics, uh, we had the great game of business come speak.

To our mastermind group. A couple years prior to that, we had Dr. Ray Tuck. Um, he came and spoke about how he grew his businesses and a lot of it was around financial clarity. Now you don't share, like you would share potentially a, a payroll number, like the total amount, including payroll taxes and teach him all that stuff.

I think one of the key things is, is just teaching them financial metrics. Like, you know, an associate oftentimes doesn't realize. That you have employer taxes, right? So if you, if you write $10,000 in a month in payroll, you get taxed another like 10%. So it costs you a thousand dollars in taxes to pay people, which is always boggles my mind.

But, um, breaking that down so you could, you could show your overhead. And then the bucket of payroll and, and payroll taxes would just be a number, like [00:09:00] 20,000 a month. It wouldn't show what Bob's making or Mary's making, or Dr. Smith is making. Right? And so teaching them about practice finances is huge because frankly, they don't know it and they're gonna think you're, you're, you're making so much money, you're bearing it under your backyard and hiding under your mattress.

And when as an owner, we know that's not happening. Even if you have a thriving practice, like, um. It's, it's not, we don't have the margins like a plastic surgeon or so, so that's, uh, to answer that particular question. Alright, going back, uh, for owners, the focus is on hiring for success, not just filling a, a schedule gap.

A strategic approach involves defining roles, responsibilities, and measurable goals upfront. Establishing, sorry, lemme redo that one. Establishing, establishing, lemme do that again. Becky. Establishing. Clear compensation structures aligned with expectations. This one, I'm gonna just chime in on here. I think this is one of the huge issues that owners [00:10:00] do to associates.

They come up with these, and I, I was a victim of it when I was an not an associate. Um, I had clear when I was an associate, but I was in a partnership. And that partnership, I was like a minority partner. So I was more of like an associate, um. That it was just like a cockamamie, uh, compensation structure.

And I see too many owners do that. There's really no clear compensation structure, um, with expectations. Okay. Uh, next, providing training, marketing support, and operational autonomy, depending on the associate's role. Compensation deserves special attention, complicated or unrealistic bonus structures often lead to frustration, transparency, and simplicity build stronger, longer lasting relationships.

Alright, building mutually beneficial relationships. Successful associate owner partnerships share several [00:11:00] key characteristics, written agreements clearly outlining compensation roles, responsibilities, decision making authority. And any ownership or partnership opportunities update these agreements as the relationship evolves.

Two regular communication schedule, consistent check-ins to review practice performance, address concerns, and ensure alignment. Poor communication is the root of most conflicts. Number three, professional development. Invest in your associates growth through continuing education, clinical mentorship, and exposure to practice management decisions.

Associates who feel involved are more likely to invest fully in the practice. Owner transition. Many associates start with vague promises of future ownership. These promises often create tension when expectations don't match reality. To avoid issues, structure, ownership, op options explicitly define trial periods, purchase prices or valuation [00:12:00] methods and formal documentation involve advisors, practice brokers, attorneys, and accountants can help structure.

Transitions properly. Maintain patient and staff trust. Plan carefully for how the transition affects patient, staff and operations. If ownership isn't an option, be upfront. Many associates thrive in long-term positions, as long as expectations are clear and compensation is fair. Miscommunication is what typically leads to dissatisfaction.

The role of professional development, life events, seminars, sorry, lemme redo that. Becky. Uh, live events, seminars, and professional development opportunities are often overlooked, but play a major role in bridging the divide. They develop clinical and business skills, they create networking opportunities, and they expose both associates and owners to best practices from successful.

Practices. Investment in professional development [00:13:00] signals a commitment to both the associate and the broader profession. So moving forward, bridging the associate owner divide requires intentional effort from both parties. Associates must approach opportunities with an ownership mindset. Seeking to understand practice economics and contribute to growth.

Owners must provide clear expectations, proper support systems, and fair compensation structures that align incentives The chiropractic profession needs both great jobs for young doctors and great associates for established practices. By addressing the disconnect head on with honest communication, clear agreements, and mutual investment and success, we can create relationships that.

Benefit everyone, associates, owners, and most importantly, the patients we serve. The divide isn't insurmountable. With the right approach, o associate owner relationships become powerful partnerships that elevate the entire [00:14:00] profession. So that is the blog I wrote for Cairo Up. You can go to cairo up.com and they have a great website and they've got a resource section with a blog and you can find it.

Uh, right there. And you can read that there's, they put in a couple nice graphs on there as well, which was good. And I, um, believe I answered most of the questions on that. Um, let's see here. One of the questions was, um, autonomy in practice, right? I, I'd mentioned about, uh, reasonable associate autonomy. And the question they had had asked was, for instance, if an associate's first patient is booked at 8:45 AM but the clinic opens at 8:00 AM is it reasonable for them to arrive at eight 40?

Am these nuances seem important and may be worth unpacking further? No. You gotta set, I mean, you gotta set standards, right? I think you gotta have that, like in our clinic. Um, we have a pre-shift huddle before each shift, so it's expected to be, uh, if we [00:15:00] were to open up at, uh, 9:00 AM we are all, we're at our meeting at 8:45 AM even if my patient or associate patient isn't until eight 30 or, or sorry, nine 30.

Right. So yeah, you, you would, you would need to set that, uh, uh, with autonomy. It's, it's a framework, right? I kind of, even clinically, I often use the, the phrase or, or the idea of like. You want to have, uh, say an associate that is working within a congruent clinical framework that your practice offers, but giving them some artistic freedom, right?

Um, you're, you're not gonna be hovering over them and, and critiquing every clinical decision they ever make. You're gonna have a framework of what your clinic stands for and the standards of clinical care that you have. And maybe you want a, an associate that is, uh, you know, really good with manipulation and palpation.

You expect that you expect them to be, uh, a RT certified. You expect them to know how to use shockwave. Like you can have [00:16:00] those. Expectations of clinical care, but then, um, have some artistic freedom within that. And I think that's the same thing with just the general autonomy is you don't wanna be micromanaging them, but there's gonna be standards and expectations.

So, um, that was the only one I didn't answer as I was speaking in there. And, um, hopefully this is helpful for owner doctors and associates. I've mentioned it on podcasts before. I do think, um, I. There's a lot of owners doing a lot of good things. There's a lot of associates doing a lot of good things, but we also have too many owners that are, um, a, they're, they're, they need an associate, but they truly can't afford an associate.

And so they, they, they, they pigeonhole the situation and it leads to bad outcomes. And then there's owners that are deceptive or, um. Not up with the times on what reality of compensation should be or, um, growing an associates, sometimes it becomes, um, an eat what you kill [00:17:00] type or not eat what you kill.

Was it something eat their young type of situation. And an associate, you know, there's a lot of great young associates. I, I get to speak with 'em, I run into 'em, but man, there's a lot. And this, it's no different now than it, it was even when I was coming out. There's just a lot of. Young docs that come out that are just, just totally unprepared and not, not ready for what the realities of private practice are, and we need to fix that as well.

So hopefully we can help. Hope you enjoyed that. Have a great week in practice and we'll talk soon.

EPISODE 474: SEO and AI Search Update Show with Darcy Sullivan

Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. Today I bring on Darcy Sullivan, who is our. Uh, resident expert on SEO and we are also, uh, starting to navigate AI search and so we're gonna dive into that today. Some of it's basically A-A-S-E-O and AI search update show. We have her on a couple times a year to do that.

It's an ever changing topic. And she is the expert, so we're excited to have her on again. Uh, before I just make mention, one of our collaborators, we're excited to have cross fields interiors and architecture. Um, like our other collaborators, I utilized the service. I back in 2022. I remodeled my clinic. Uh, just really needed to freshen it up, right?

I bought it in 2013. Did a bunch of build out back then. Um, you know, every 10 years things change whether it's. To design styles or furniture starts to get worn out or paint starts to get [00:01:00] shoddy. And so we did, um, a redesign on paint schemes. We did new flooring. We did new furniture, new artwork and really brought it into the modern times with it.

And it was a, a great experience whether you're starting from scratch or you need to update your office and everywhere in between, uh, they have the expertise, not only in design but as it pertains to chiropractic offices. 'cause you might need to have them design your, your flow, your patient flow and, and an actual whole design of like the architecture design, not just the interior design.

So they handle both. Uh, whether you're, you know, really trying to build out a great clinic or not, and it's just frankly worth the investment. And there is an ROI to it. There's nothing like having a nice office that you're proud of and it does impact your clinic and your patient. Check them out@crossfieldsdesign.com. Alright, without further ado, here is my interview with Darcy Sullivan.

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:02:00] All right. Ready to have Darcy Sullivan on our show. I think the most frequent guest we've had, because as you can imagine, everything search is not only very important for your clinic, but it's always ever changing. And so she's, uh, our resident, uh, SEO specialist, and, uh, not only have we had on on our podcast for a while, has worked with a lot of our clients and then worked with a lot of chiropractors in general.

So I, I think Darcy, we originally met. Because we're both local here, which was cool. And we, and you helped me out, I think, I think it might be 15 years ago now, right? Uh,

Darcy Sullivan: at least I'd say 10 or 11. I don't know. Yeah. Blurry.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It's something like that.

Darcy Sullivan: Something like that. Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It's all blurring together now.

Darcy Sullivan: Yes. But I'm glad to be back on your show.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely. From a overarching standpoint, what's, what's new in, in your professional world and, and just what are you excited about?

Darcy Sullivan: Uh, excited about ai. Scared of ai.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Darcy Sullivan: Um, which I think is [00:03:00] how most people feel.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yes. That's an honest answer.

Darcy Sullivan: It is. Right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Darcy Sullivan: So search has definitely been continuing to evolve and so strategy needs to continue to evolve.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it does. And you know, um. I presented to our ma our east and west mastermind for our, our weekend, one of 2026. So we were in Park City for the East group. Ironically, I know Park City's not in the east.

They wanted to ski. Uh, and then we were in Tucson, Arizona for the west group. And, and so I led the presentation just on, on marketing in general. But one of the things we talked about was the flywheel effect of getting, you know, the marketing going. And it takes time. It takes time, and then you get that flywheel turning.

And the results come. And, and I've always felt like search is one of the biggest flywheels a a chiropractic clinic can, can have, and then all of a sudden it's just spitting out new patients, um, every, every month. So it's, it's [00:04:00] worth keeping up with the changes. It's worth keeping up with the fundamentals as well.

Um, but I, I have a handful of, of questions and topics here that I kind of derived from, you know, chatting with you, but also other. Chiropractors that are asking me questions and our coaching clients and things like that. So let's just dive right in. Okay.

Darcy Sullivan: Let's do it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Uh, first one I have is, what is the biggest change you are seeing in Google search right now that clinic owners are missing?

Darcy Sullivan: So I think in general, as we're seeing AI come about and people don't realize how much information is being pulled from your website, because. You know, maybe AI is showing a bit on Google or Claude or Grok or really any of the sources. Yeah. And so people wanna show up in these places, but they, they almost can't connect the idea that all of, a lot of those actions take [00:05:00] place on their website.

And so really having a built out information filled website helps them. Pull these pockets of information that they're displaying, whether it's Google as we know and love, or some of these other AI searches that are now becoming more and more popular.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, um, you know, obviously you, and, and I've been preaching that for a while as far as making your website the hub and it, and, and really like a living, breathing thing.

Uh, and it's, it's gonna be all the more important now. 'cause I think sometimes people psychologically, you know, like, oh, do I need to write blogs on my website? Do I need to have. Condition pages and stuff, are people gonna read those? Uh, well yeah. People are gonna read 'em, you know, people are gonna get your website and read stuff like that.

Um, but you know, you gotta look at it. Also, just the fact that AI's gonna be reading it and people are gonna have really distinct searches [00:06:00] and, and if you don't have that stuff, you're just not gonna exist in the world of AI search.

Darcy Sullivan: It's not just that you're not gonna exist. But let's say you personally rely too much on AI to put together your content because you're like, oh, I'm gonna build out all this content on the website.

So you have all of this quote unquote content, but it's. So bland that it's exactly what everybody else has. It doesn't make you the option that is going to be highlighted. So it's one, people are scanning content, which is why, you know, websites have structure of headers, subheaders within content below them so that people can scan the content, but also so AI can scan the content.

So AI might pull something from the bottom of a page. Versus your reader when they first arrive on that website, you know, they're looking through and starting at the top. So it's just, it's, it's a different world. [00:07:00]

Dr. Kevin Christie: Now can AI determine if something is AI slop and not, uh, want to feed that to the as the

Darcy Sullivan: answer?

I, I don't think that's the right question to ask because I think that's the question and the way people ask it, and the real answer is, is that AI and people are looking for, well, ai Google is looking to provide the searcher with the result that best matches. What that person was searching for with the intent that they had.

Mm-hmm. Generic AI content isn't going to stand out because if you're just writing generic AI content and it's so vague. WebMD or something is gonna be the result, right? Versus something that's more specific and geared towards your offering, your modalities, your treatment style, the insurances that you accept, if you accept insurances, your process, your [00:08:00] location, et cetera.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. 'cause that's the thing is the prompting is, is so. Uh, people are getting better at prompting, and the specific prompting is gonna be, it's not like keyword, right, like low back pain. Boca Ratone per se. That's still happening, but a lot of people might prompt, you know, I'm looking for a chiropractor that does active release technique in Boca Ratone, Florida, and is in network with my Blue Cross Blue Shield plant.

Like, it's, it's gonna be stuff like that.

Darcy Sullivan: Exactly. And these searches are becoming, you know, the search becoming more educated. They're, they're searching exactly like you said. And, you know, years ago we started talking about voice, SE we've been talking about voice, SEO for 10, 15 years. But it's the same thing now that people became used to voice.

SEO became used to pushing the button to talk. They're, they're asking these questions and they really do want customized treatment. You know, unless they're just shopping around for the cheapest. Solution. Mm-hmm. But if they're really [00:09:00] somebody that usually is your target ideal patient, they're looking for what you offer, we just have to make sure that you're the one that stands out.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And so you're saying that I guess one of the biggest mistakes they're, they're making is, is not turning their website into really a, a content hub, essentially.

Darcy Sullivan: Absolutely. And you know. I think that the word content, we use the word content so much that, yeah, I don't want people to think that that means that they have to do a million blogs.

But when you start with your core foundation of your website before you start blogging and making sure that you have these built out pages regarding the services or modalities that you offer, the conditions that you treat, your process, and also, you know, AI loves questions. So including some of these frequently asked questions on specific pages.

Helps you with your ranking. And I have to be careful the way I word this, because sometimes people like just go to the bottom of all their pages and they're like, [00:10:00] you know, frequently asked questions and just put in a bunch of googly garb. You know, any and everything that AI tells them are questions related to that topic.

Whereas like if you look at, for example, your shockwave page. Mm-hmm. You know, we've got these headers that ask some of the common questions about shockwave and then go into the answers. So if somebody. Near you is looking for a shockwave expert.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Darcy Sullivan: You stand above because others are just like, oh yeah, we do shockwave.

It's a bullet point on our website.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Darcy Sullivan: That's it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. That page has actually been very fruitful for us, so, so thank you. Yeah, it's, uh, definitely been, we even had, uh, in an ortho, uh, one to find someone to do shockwave for one of his patients and, and our website pulled up when he searched, and so that was, uh, that was nice as well.

Darcy Sullivan: Good.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Then, uh, moving on to the next one, which is kind of a tie in on ai, but how do AI overviews and AI generated searches change what we should publish on a, on [00:11:00] a clinic website? Is there anything that we should change that we're doing, especially with the AI overviews,

Darcy Sullivan: so it's not necessarily that. You should change, and this really does kind of tie into the previous question, is we're still looking to make sure that you are having in-depth content on your core website before you go into doing.

The blog post. Mm-hmm. But also that you're, you're structuring your content in a way that is gonna be easy for AI to understand, which again, subheaders content that kind of flow helps it along with actually providing the content that they're searching for. So, you know, pay attention to the conversations that you're having with people.

That are coming in and what wording are they using? Because sometimes we get hung up on the doctor talk and you know what the real problem is, but they're using some other terminology. And so [00:12:00] we wanna meet them with the terms that they're using, which is keywords. But also, you know, we're kind of expanding keywords here because everybody's searching a little differently and more advanced

Dr. Kevin Christie: these

Darcy Sullivan: days.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, like in the tie that in, you're not gonna write a, you know, you might not use the word discogenic, low back pain or something. Right. Uh, or, you know, things like that. You might start to use sciatica or you, you know, a lot of, a lot of people, a lot of chiropractors get bent outta shape when you say TMJ.

Mm-hmm. You know, and it's T so they use TMD, which, uh. The patients are never gonna type in TMD. Right, right. So, uh, but yeah, you gotta look at it from that perspective for sure. So, okay, cool. And then, um, what are some local SEO tactics? 'cause obviously I, you know, before I ask a question, I want, you know, give the audience a little bit of context.

You know, there's obviously certain businesses that. Are not a local business. Mm-hmm. You know, they might sell supplements nationally or [00:13:00] whatever. They're not a local brick and mortar. Uh, obviously the vast majority of our audience are chiropractors that are brick and mortar. There are some people that listen to this, that, that are not.

But, uh, with that context, what are some of local SEO tactics that are not worth, you know, not worth the effort anymore to, to do

Darcy Sullivan: Well there? There's a handful. One, one of my favorite old, um. Which isn't old, old, but one of my favorite Google business profile strategies used to be to really optimize your q and a section.

Mm-hmm. But Google stripped that away and they're changing it into this new AI search. Mm-hmm. You have to have those valuable questions and answers on your website so that you know they're able to pull that information in addition to that. Reviews, which I know you're probably gonna ask me about testimonials later, so I don't wanna get ahead of myself.

Mm-hmm. They're just so important when it comes to, to [00:14:00] local SEO and there's still some people that are doing like the, the gatekeeping where they have on their website, where you can, where it's like, leave us a review and it's got like how many stars and if you're gonna pick lower than what they want, it takes you to a form page versus going to Google.

To leave a review. Google doesn't love that. Um, so that's a little outdated. Buying back links oof. So outdated and doesn't work. Also, just putting up content and put doing blogs because you feel like you're supposed to.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Darcy Sullivan: Doesn't work anymore.

Dr. Kevin Christie: A lot of marketing I've, I've learned over the years is to soothe the own chiropractic owner's soul that they're doing marketing.

Darcy Sullivan: Yes. Yeah, I would agree with that as well.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Um, okay, perfect. Yeah. So, and then I guess to piggyback on that, you know, Google reads are obviously very important. Um, is it still on Google business profile where you can list your [00:15:00] insurance plans you're on, and is that helpful for this?

Darcy Sullivan: That's helpful. So is doing the direct booking if you have a link to your direct booking.

Okay. Now one thing that's different now that AI is starting to take over is AI is really, or your reviews are training AI about your company. Everything that you feed in is training AI about your company. But what I see a lot of, especially chiropractors, is they're asking for reviews the wrong way.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Darcy Sullivan: They're asking people to leave a review and people leave a review. Like the office was clean, the staff was friendly. Those are fine, but what Google does is it looks at some of these repeater words and like you'll even see those, they'll make 'em bold in the reviews because it thinks those are most related to your, those key words are most related to your business.

Whereas if you were to do such a small change as to change the way you [00:16:00] ask for a review to something like, what brought you in today and how was your experience?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Darcy Sullivan: Someone's more likely to say, I came in with knee pain, I had a shockwave treatment. I feel better already. Like it that is going to, and that's so simple.

That's non-technical. Yeah. That's something you can implement today That will be huge in the rewards that it gives back to you.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Awesome. I'm gonna do that, writing it down. I, uh, I have this podcast not for anything other than to, uh, steal information from people so I can apply it to my practice and grow the practice, and that's one of them.

So thank you. Um, you're

Darcy Sullivan: welcome.

Dr. Kevin Christie: All right. So, uh, good stuff there Now. Um, how should, you know, we kind of touched on a little bit, but how should clinics think about content now? Is it like fewer blogs, more in depth with it? Uh, something else that we should think about? Like when we do [00:17:00] create content, should we think about like, is YouTube like getting videos on YouTube gonna be helpful?

Like what, what are some of the, um, content distributions on that? Where are we at on it?

Darcy Sullivan: Yeah, so all great questions. Now, I know that you love video pe. More people are starting to really love video. What I see as a missed opportunity there is mm-hmm. Some people like the cheese stands alone, where they're just posting video on YouTube and missing the opportunity to take it and turn it into a quality blog, blog post.

Mm-hmm. And it's not that we're saying. You don't need to blog anymore. Blogging's still amazing. It's the crummy blog post, the AI written blog post. The vague blog post. The blog post that shows no personality that isn't gonna help you the way that it would've maybe 10 years ago. 15 years ago.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Darcy Sullivan: Um, so when it comes to your website, obviously focus on your core [00:18:00] pages when it comes to your website and local SEO, you know, in the footer of your website, we want your address.

We want the Google map embedded. We want people to be able to know where you're located. Your map and your address should also be on your contact page. I know that sounds simple, but you'd be surprised how many people are missing that opportunity.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Oh yeah.

Darcy Sullivan: And then it's that core content on your website, like, you know, not just listing bullet points or listing chiropractic one time, but like going into detail mm-hmm.

About your process and having specific. Services or modality pages and specific conditions pages is gonna help you with your rankings along with the about and the FAQs.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, dur during the mastermind that I was talking about that I was leading the marketing on that, one of the things we did do was, uh, a whole section on, on website reviews.

And these are all clinics that are very successful practices [00:19:00] and, uh, high wherewithal within the members. Uh, you know, we, we did website reviews and what we actually did was, um, we, we demoed mine. And we demoed, um, Ashley and Brittany's, who you had, uh, just, uh, done their website and we kind of use it as, uh, an example of, of where you, what we wanna start to, to see in a website.

And then we had a few people volunteer to. To audit their website in front of the group, which is the group's great. You know, like we could do those things and people don't get their feelings hurt. And yeah, there was a lot of things that were surprising. And then we had everybody break down into small groups of four and bring a laptop and review smaller group on each website.

And it was pretty eyeopening for a lot of members on things they, they need to improve.

Darcy Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, bare minimum if you just have somebody look at your website with fresh eyes Yeah. And ask them. As soon as you land on the website, do you know who we serve, what we offer, where we're [00:20:00] located, and what surrounding area we serve?

Along with, was it easy for you to book an appointment? Was it frictionless? Like, you know, do you, did you understand what the next steps should be that you take. Do you understand what we offer? Do you understand what conditions we treat? And you'll be surprised because I think we just become numb. 'cause we're so used to being like, oh yeah, well that's on the website.

And I hear that phrase all the time. Well, it's on our website. And you're like, oh, well it's buried down here in a sentence really low that no one's gonna read, but okay. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And going back to what you were saying before, you know, shooting video, one of the things we talk about with content and, and AI is, and, and I heard this originally, um, in my Strategic coach group because we talk a lot, a lot about ai, but really it seems like the sweet spot is human plus ai.

And so if you shoot a video and it's your information and your expertise, and then you. And you take that and tease out the info into some kind of written content form, [00:21:00] um, then it's gonna be your points of view and things like that. And it's not gonna be just purely AI generated and made up.

Darcy Sullivan: Absolutely.

And I think that's one of the easiest ways to add personality mm-hmm. To, to something, is to have the video. What the issue ends up being is sometimes people just put a video up and they just assume that everybody's gonna push, play and watch it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, yeah.

Darcy Sullivan: So they don't include any written content surrounding it, and it's just a, a missed opportunity.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, absolutely. Alright, last question I got for you. Um, and I actually get this one often and, and I never give a good answer. So, um, hopefully you will. Um, how do you handle multi-location clinics now? Uh, so, so Google sends people to the right location page and not the wrong one.

Darcy Sullivan: So that's a great question.

And in fact, I think I just got an email from one of the. I think it was a chiropractor in one of your groups or another chiropractor yesterday [00:22:00] asking a similar question because they're starting to build out, as a lot of chiropractors are expanding. Um, one is when you have that new location on your website, you need dedicated pages for each of your specific locations.

Mm-hmm. And they should not be generic. They should have, they should highlight that location, include the address, the embedded map. Talk about the services that are provided at that location. You know, showcasing that that location is different than the other locations. And then you need a Google Business profile listing for that location.

Mm-hmm. It's not. And add on. You don't just, there seems to be some confusion with that. You don't just like add it on to your original Google business profile listing, um, which I think some people get hung up on. But anyways, you want to make sure that you have. The new location on your website, on [00:23:00] a page that's primary to it.

And then start building out your nap listings, which NAP stands for name, address, and phone number, making sure that those listings are listed throughout. So your Google Business profile listing, Yelp, apple Maps, Bing business, um, you know, all of the core locations where you can. Put listings, you wanna make sure that you have those listings, and once you have that, then make sure that throughout your website it's seasoned, if you will.

Mm-hmm. With location based words that relate to both locations.

Dr. Kevin Christie: You know, uh, kind of a ancillary question, but I know you and I have talked about this in the past. Um, if someone changes locations, addresses, move, you know, leaves a clinic and, and goes to ano, opens their own, things like that, what, what's the, is there a particular service software that helps you clean up bad addresses?

Darcy Sullivan: Is it worth, is

Dr. Kevin Christie: it worth doing that?

Darcy Sullivan: I, I personally, I [00:24:00] think it's worth doing it on your own if you have the time.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Darcy Sullivan: Um, there are a couple of them. I'd rather not necessarily name the names of the software, but I will say this, I'll say, don't invest in one that requires you to pay annually.

Okay. There are ones that, um. You can do a one-time flat fee. Mm-hmm. And I would just do that. But one core element, especially if you're working with a marketing agency, is to make sure that you have your login information for. All your core accounts, so your Google business profile listing, your website, all of your core listings that either you, you and an admin that you work with you and somebody else has access to these listings because.

That's where the issue lies, and that you keep track of, I don't know, your name and your password form, you know, your username and password, [00:25:00] because that's where the issue usually comes in, is when somebody's like, well, this old marketing company set stuff up for us and it's wrong, and now we can't get ahold of them.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I'm notorious for, I, I use LastPass for all my stuff, but I never can remember my LastPass password to get into all my. The passwords. Becky, who's uh, producing this right now is probably laughing 'cause I have to slack her for that one. But yeah, it's, I, I saw a funny, a, a funny, uh, meme or whatever.

It was like, you know, if you're of of my age, uh, you can remember your, your landline phone number from 1987, but you can't remember your passwords for anything from like last week.

Darcy Sullivan: Absolutely.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I could actually remember my neighbor's phone number still. Because that we were really close and yeah, you just, like, you had to actually remember phone numbers back then.

Remember that

Darcy Sullivan: crazy notion. Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Oh, well, Darcy, this was great and thank you for, for hopping on again. Um, [00:26:00] obviously we'll, we'll continue to have you on as things change and I just wanna leave everybody with this that, uh, yeah, like you said early on, AI is exciting and scary. I think from a chiropractor's perspective, if you are, if your business is reliant on.

Hands-on and, and in-person treatment, AI is not gonna impact you in replacing you for a very long time, if ever. Um, so you, that's a good news. A lot of people are concerned about that, so you got that in your, under your belt. But, uh, also you, you do have to understand that. AI could impact you negatively if you don't keep up with this stuff because there's going to be practices in your community that are going to be keeping up with it.

And so if you're not, uh, you could see a decrease in business because the other folks are gonna get the business potentially. And so I don't want AI to impact you that way. So just have, uh, someone. In-house or outhouse to, to, to really keep you up to speed on this [00:27:00] stuff. It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, and it can really be impactful for your practice.

Do you agree with that, Darcy?

Darcy Sullivan: Absolutely.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Perfectly

Darcy Sullivan: stated.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Perfect. So, well thank you again. And, uh, where can, uh, people reach out? You got anything for them before we

Darcy Sullivan: Sure. Sign off? Absolutely. So they can always go to the website propel your company.com and I'll provide you with a link. We're putting together a chiropractic SEO starter kit that anybody listening to this episode can get in the show notes.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Perfect. Well, I thank you again.

Darcy Sullivan: Thanks for having me.

EPISODE 475: Hard Things Worth Doing with Katie & Joe Kula, DCs

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. Uh, today I'm bringing on a couple a two chiropractors, husband and wife, Dr. Katie Kula and Dr. Joseph Kula, and they have been in our West Mastermind for the last few years, but we're really talking about the. Topic of hard things worth doing. It was something I had been chewing on that, that phrase.

Um, and I, and I wanted to have them on a chat to, to talk about it because in 2025 they took on some hard things but that were worth doing. And, and they are on the other side of it now. And we also go back to when they started practice and some other obstacles faced and, and just try to give the. The chiropractor listening, the understanding that, uh, you know, success isn't this linear progression straight up.

It's, uh, it's challenging. There's obstacles, there's certain things that are [00:01:00] hard. That are not fun and you wish didn't happen, but you have to overcome it. Then there are some things that, you know, they're hard, but they're worth, they're really like, yeah, this is a positive. It doesn't mean it's gonna be easy, but this is a positive.

And so we talk about that and some of their experiences, uh, around that. Uh, before, uh, we do dive into. Uh, we have put up our 2027 Mastermind details. Uh, there are spots, uh, some spots available on the West Mastermind, and it's gonna be a great group out there that, that group has really grown, uh, and it's been exciting to see that.

And we will be in Palm Springs, California. Uh, we're gonna be in Austin, Texas. And also, um, we're gonna be in Hood River, Oregon,

and our East West Mastermind will be in. Chicago. So check that out. Just go to our website, modern chiropractic mastery.com, and you can see the Mastermind tab up there and all the details of who our guest presenters [00:02:00] are and the topics and locations and dates, and we'd love to have you just fill out the form and request more information.

So without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Katie Kula and Dr. Joseph Kula.

All right. I'm excited to have Dr. Katie and Joe Kula on our podcast today. I've gotten to know them over the last few years from the Mastermind and something that I, uh, heard from a strategic coach member, a phrase, uh, hard things worth doing, really stuck out to me. And I wanted to do a interview on that.

And these two docs were the first ones I, I thought of because, uh, in 2025, they, they did a lot of things. That we're hard and, and worth doing, and over a culmination of a career as as well. And I think sometimes we forget in a great career, there's gonna be amazing things, there's gonna be challenges, there's gonna be things that are, uh, hard to do and really exciting on the other end of it.

And it's a net positive. And then sometimes we're gonna run into [00:03:00] major obstacles that we don't want to have or deal with, but we have to, and we have to put out that fire. And that's all. Hard thing worth doing. And so I wanted to have them on there. Before we dive into some of the specifics, uh, I think, Joe, you're gonna lead us off.

Give us a little bit of background on, on your guys as a family and, and where you practice. A little bit about all that, and we'll then we'll get into it.

Katie Kula: Hey Kevin, thanks for

Joe Kula: having us on. Uh, yeah. Katie and I are husband, wife, business partners. We met in chiropractic school at Logan. We've been practicing for about 16 years each.

Mm-hmm. We've owned our practice for the past 11 years. We have two daughters, Marlo and Sylvia, eight and six years old. And when they heard we were gonna be on a podcast, they told us, mom and dad, you are famous. Oh my gosh. And so, uh, we just wanna say thanks for inviting us on the podcast, and we're honored to be part of this opportunity to share and contribute.

Dr. Kevin Christie: You might be more infamous than [00:04:00] famous after this episode, but I hope the fame doesn't get to your head, Joe.

Joe Kula: We'll, uh, we'll try not to, I guess.

Dr. Kevin Christie: So I wanna, I want to get, let's go back a little bit. Um, you know, 2025, I think was a, was a, a really pivotal year for, for both of you, but let's. Let's talk about where, you know, in a career, where the, the challenges start.

So I know you guys met in chiropractic school, the, the Harvard of chiropractic schools, right? Logan University? Correct, yeah. What year did you guys graduate? And then what, where did you end up right after that?

Katie Kula: I graduated in December of 2009

Joe Kula: and I graduated in 2010.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Oh,

Katie Kula: okay. Nice. And so after chiropractic school at Logan, we had an opportunity to take an associate [00:05:00] position in Seattle, Washington.

And that position was actually under another married couple, Dr. Jim Kurtz and Dr. Ming Ming Sue Brown. Mm-hmm. And that associate position was. Just a great stepping stone in our career. Uh, they were great clinical mentors of ours. And also we got to witness what it was like for a, a married chiropractic couple to run a practice.

So that was, uh, a special, um, learning experience for us as well. And, uh, we spent four years as associates in Seattle. And we just really used that time while we were there to practice our clinical skills and really work on honing our craft.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Yeah. So did you, [00:06:00] did you want to move out to the Pacific Northwest or was an opportunity for, uh, associate positions there and that was really like, okay, yeah, we're gonna.

We're gonna be willing to move for a, a good job. 'cause I think sometimes, uh, you know, it's challenging for young chiropractors that are graduating where they, they may decide they want to be in one specific area and they have to find a job in that one specific area. And that could be hard. Uh, was this something where you, you just found an opportunity?

It's say, yeah, we can make this work by moving out to Seattle together.

Joe Kula: Yeah, Kevin, I, I had an opportunity to do a preceptorship in Portland, Oregon with mm-hmm. Dr. Ted Comb, and that was another great experience that led to a job opportunity up in Seattle with Dr. Kurtz and Dr. Sue Brown. And yeah, that was definitely a hard thing for us to move from the comfort of our home, homelands, Missouri and Illinois.

But we. We were also adventurous and, uh, we were, we were looking forward to, to Seattle and, and [00:07:00] just, uh, everything that that had to offer along with the. Clinical opportunity with, uh, Northwest Sports Rehab.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, that's, uh, that's something that, you know, we, we don't think about too often is how hard it can be to make that decision to, to uproot for career opportunities and people in other.

Fields, obviously do that all the time, and it does increase your ability to get really good opportunities, uh, that can speed your, uh, progression forward in a profession. So now let's move on to, okay, four years associateship, uh, decide to open up your, your own practice. Uh, what did that look like as far as picking out a location and, and getting all that going?

And what year would, would that have been like around 2014 or so?

Katie Kula: Y Yes. We, we actually got married in 2013 and then, um, in 2014 started looking at where we wanted [00:08:00] to raise our family and start building our future together. And there was this, there's this beautiful area in the scenic Columbia River Gorge.

And we found an opportunity in a small town called White Salmon Washington, and we had looked at buying a practice, starting a practice in the gorge, and we ended up getting an opportunity to buy a practice from a chiropractor who was retiring.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Nice, nice. And uh, I'm excited to visit that area in the summer of 2027 for the West Mastermind.

Katie Kula: It's, uh, we are excited to host the mastermind group. That's gonna be epic.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. It's inked in, we're in, we're in. So, um, that's awesome. Perfect. So that's obviously a hard thing worth doing is, is buying a practice and doing that and, and getting it going. [00:09:00] And, um, from there now I want to, I want to fast forward to, uh, 2020, right?

2020 I know was hard on a, on a lot of people. Um, I think it was in particular hard on, on you guys. There's a lot going on there, but obviously. Uh, some of it was very well worth doing, uh, as we can imagine. But tell us about your 2020. Obviously we, we know it's the pandemic, but what else is going on in your world?

Joe Kula: Yeah, 20. We know 2020 was hard for, uh, a lot of other folks, so we don't wanna minimize, uh, the challenges that anyone else went through. Um, let's see. So Katie had, um. Our second baby in March. So that was a big thing. Um, and then 10 days, 10 days later, the world shut down. Um, and we, we were planning to have a lot of family out to, to see our second baby, and that didn't happen.

Um,

Katie Kula: and then on top of [00:10:00] just having a baby during the start of a global pandemic, we had just signed a lease in a new clinic building. So, um, our first five years when we were in, uh, white salmon, we were in this old clinic building that, um, literally we had calamities right and left in that space where, uh, we had a swarm of bees that colonated in one of our treatment rooms.

Joe Kula: Yeah.

Katie Kula: And whenever there was a heavy rainstorm, it would flood. And so, um, there were, um, so many stressful situations that happened in this old building. So we were really excited that we had an opportunity to move into this new clinic space. Yeah. But what the timeline that was happening is that the build out was going to start just as I had had our [00:11:00] second child.

And, um, we had no idea what was about to unfold through 2020. And so our lease was ending in this old space, but the new space was not going to be available. Uh, the build out was not going to be complete for about five months, and so there was this inconvenient overlap that we had to. Move into our temporary space while the new clinic was being built out.

And so we ended up finding this, uh, former corporate office building where we actually treated our patients behind cubicles while we were waiting for the new clinic to be built. And we had just had a new baby and there was a global pandemic. So that was a stressful year.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Kula: We still provided high quality care behind those cubicles.

Dr. Kevin Christie: That's right. And you [00:12:00] know, I, I, a couple things that come to my mind here, I think that are good learning lessons for people is one is your patient base. Can be very resilient when they trust their doctors. Like they, they, they'll get treated in, uh, cubicles. They'll move a couple times. They'll, they'll do all that because they have ultimate trust in, in, in you guys.

And it's amazing what they can, uh, deal with. Which is, which is always good. And I think that's something to consider. And I know like, to keep to elaborate a little on the backdrop 'cause like. As it is right now, and as we record this, basically April of 2026, you guys have an awesome practice, right? You guys are just, it's really cool what you've built and, and it's amazing.

You can have a. A challenging 10 years, 15 years and have a great practice. You can have a challenging, you can have a challenging year or challenges within a year [00:13:00] and have a great year. And it's, uh, it's pretty cool when you look back on it and say, wow, 2020. Was really hard, but an awesome child came from that.

Um, the space that you're, that you ended up in came from that, right? Uh, all those things led to something really great on the other, uh, side of it. And so it's something to, that we have to keep on realizing as we do this because. Ultimately, I feel like when you're a business owner, you, you become a chief problem solver, right?

And you gotta solve these problems and, and just know and have trust in the fact that you are gonna solve it and it will be okay. Uh, what are some of the insights you have from that, that going through that in 2020 and where you're at now?

Katie Kula: Yeah, Kevin, exactly what you just said in that, um, we have definitely had seasons.

Of business ownership where things have felt [00:14:00] really hard and really heavy. And, you know, sometimes your team that you have a decade into practice hasn't seen all of those things that you've been through and all of those challenges you've faced and obstacles you've overcome. But, um, what we remind ourselves on a pretty regular basis, um, is that.

People who are up to big things sometimes run into big problems. And yes, that's, I guess we, we know that we've taken on an adventurous lifestyle by moving away from the safety net of our family. And we know we've moved twice and, um, you know, started a practice and done a build out and. Eventually bought a building.

And all of those things have sometimes been big problems that we've [00:15:00] had to find our way through. So,

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah.

Joe Kula: I just wanna add, uh, Katie and I try to have the mindset, um, what are we choosing to create? Mm-hmm. And what decisions align with that, because our choices create the future. And yeah, that 2020, there were a lot of, we had the choice of.

Of moving to improve our clinic space. There were a lot of challenges that came along with that, but we're in a much better place now, uh, because of that.

Katie Kula: Where we are now has definitely allowed us to expand our practice and grow into some of those goals we've had for ourself, professionally, and, um.

One of our, our big accomplishments that we've achieved is we've started, we have a clinic gym hybrid, so we've started, uh, group fitness classes and, and we're really proud of that. Yeah. You know, our clinic [00:16:00] model is an integrated, a approach, so we do chiropractic, soft tissue and therapeutic rehab exercise, and that did just feel like a natural transition to be able to offer that.

Functional performance in those fitness classes to our patients, and we didn't have that. Potential in the old space. So moving into our new space definitely helped us achieve that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I want to touch on like, you know, the, Joe mentioned the choices and stuff. I think one of the things that you two have maintained over the years is, is a big vision.

And I think when you have a big vision, it it, it allows for you to make. Accurate choices that are sometimes hard and seem like they're daunting, but you know, it's leading towards that, that bigger vision, which is great. And another thing that I. I finally learned to do, uh, it took a while. I've, [00:17:00] I've had my practice for 16 years and I've been practicing for 21 years.

Was, was, I actually sat down with my, my associate gauge, um, uh, a couple years ago when he took the job and we kind of went over the history of the practice. I kind of went over, uh, like yeah, this year, uh. You know, it was a nightmare year and this decision here, and just so he had the context of what health fit my practice is, was the, the things that get here.

Right. So I feel like he's, he's got a good understanding and I think. Um, it ma it, it would make sense to almost do that for any team member hire as part of the onboarding is sitting down with one of you and, and saying, look, just so you know, the history of the practice and what we've done to, to, um, to grow this, it's been with the help of team members like you in the past.

And, and so they have the context of like, yeah, this isn't, you know, a. Hasn't been easy. Uh, you know, B you're not [00:18:00] like having to bury money in the backyard, in the mattress because it's coming outta your ears and stuff like that. And just know, like, this is taking a lot of hard work as a team and even maybe spotlighting some of the previous team members that were awesome and maybe they moved on to do other things or whatever, um, I think would be a pretty good idea for practice owners to start doing.

Katie Kula: Yeah,

Joe Kula: go ahead. Uh,

Katie Kula: definitely. Um. I, I think perspective matters a lot, right? Yeah. And, um, I, one of the things we actually, as parents tell our kids is, um, when we're faced with a circumstance, um, is this a big problem or a little problem is mm-hmm. What we say to our, our, our kids. But it's also something I.

Use for myself occasionally and with my, with my team when leading them. Um, and uh, a lot of times when you're first starting out, um, [00:19:00] in practice and, um, in business ownership, you're, you are overwhelmed with a lot of little problems. But I think every time you figure it out, every time you navigate your way through.

You gain that confidence, you're, you know, you're more capable, you trust, you start to trust yourself and your intuition on, um, what decisions to make and what's important. And I think that, um. That's how you can, you can show up as a leader for your team is, um, knowing that you, they, they know that you've had some experience under your belt and that you're gonna guide them through, and that you can help sort out what's a big problem, what's a little problem.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, absolutely. And so let's now take 2025. There was a lot going on in 2025. Um, some of it probably bled from 2024. I forget what year it was where I know that I'll, [00:20:00] I'll set a little bit of context on the building, but then I want you to backtrack a little bit and there's other things, EHR and things.

But I know that at one point, 'cause you were leasing the space from somebody and it became kind of. Ambiguous as to, um, what was gonna happen with that, because I know the, the guy wanted to sell it, but it was asking for a particular price. That might've been a little crazy. Um, you guys had first right refusal, but it was really putting the.

The, uh, foundation of, of your practice, your, you know, where you practice in limbo a little bit. Was that in 2024 where that started to happen? Um, I forget where he was kind of putting a sale price on there and you didn't know if you were gonna be able to match that, if you'd have to move. What was some of the details of that?

Joe Kula: Yeah, that was early spring 2024 and that definitely came and, uh, was a source of uncertainty. And, and, uh, we [00:21:00] definitely utilize our mastermind group, our West Coast Mastermind group to, to help navigate, uh, the challenges that came up from that. So we, we appreciate the, the group and all the supportive members.

That's been a huge, huge help for us.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I know that, um, go ahead, Katie. Go ahead.

Katie Kula: Yeah, so in 2024, uh, what happened is, um, we. I found out that the, there was an interested buyer, um, and that the, um, the building was potentially gonna be sold at a price that was higher than we were capable of matching.

Um, that sale did not end up going through, so the building did sit on the market for another year and a half. And then, um, in 2025 is where, um. I guess that's kind of where the story starts, where it gets exciting and.[00:22:00]

Do you want me to continue or you wanna ask a question on that? Yeah,

Dr. Kevin Christie: no. Yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna kind of finish on a high note with that. Okay. But let's go back into some of the earlier parts of 2025 where I know that there were some obstacles in the practice that you had to navigate. And then I know shortly after navigating those is when, uh, the, the opportunity to buy the practices.

But were some of those obstacles you guys faced in 2025?

Joe Kula: Well, early 2025, we actually celebrate our, our 10 year clinic anniversary. So that was really fun. We had a big party in our parking lot and had a lot of patients and community members, uh, come over to celebrate with us. So that that was a, and we we started on a good note.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Joe Kula: And then as we went along, we discovered that our old EHR was becoming obsolete, so we were forced into a situation where we had to choose a new EHR. Yeah, by August of 2025. Yeah. [00:23:00]

Dr. Kevin Christie: And that's, uh, something where, you know, I, I, I can feel your pain 'cause I had that old EHR for many years too. You and I, the three of us would, uh, sometimes complain to each other about that.

I had switched EHRs a, a few years ago. Um, but being forced into an EHR change, uh, on, on someone else's timeline is, is never easy. And then I just. Changing EHRs in general is hard. So, uh, that was a challenge. That was

Katie Kula: something we had never done before. Yeah. We, we had, had the same eh, HR for 10 years. So yeah, admittedly switching EHRs has definitely been big problem, um, that we're, we're figuring out, you know, day by day, week by week.

But, um, yeah, as any chiropractor who's listening that's gone through an EHR transition knows that's not an easy. Thing to get through. Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. That's usually one that's like if you get that done in, and that's the only thing you get done in the one year, that's a successful year. So you, you tackled that.

[00:24:00] What else was going on in 2025? That was hard?

Joe Kula: Day after we launched our new

Katie Kula: EHR, our associate that had been with us for three years told us that he was planning to move and so he gave us his notice. So, um. Uh, he worked with us a a couple of more months and then, um, this was kind of putting us into the, um, last, uh, quarter of 2025.

So I think the week after our associate left. A notification landed on our desk that, um, there was a very serious offer to buy our building and that with, um, a, a, a very urgent timeline as well. Mm-hmm. And if we were to match this offer, we had to jump on it. And so that definitely [00:25:00] created a. Scramble and a very unexpected, um, situation that we were finding ourselves in where we, we were still learning our new EHR our associate had just left, so we were covering his patient load.

Um, and now we were in this circumstance where if we wanted to buy our building, we were gonna have to do it by the end of the year. And, um, that definitely required us, um, to, um, take it to the next level. And this was a very high stakes, complex process that we had never been in before. And it definitely, uh, required us to lean on the team of advisors that we had.

Thankfully had been utilizing all [00:26:00] through, owning a practice, but were there and ready for us when we needed them. Um, we had an attorney that we trusted and was very instrumental in helping us, um, make this transaction happen. We had a financial advisor. Um, a real estate agent that, um, we trusted and was very connected in the community.

And, um, uh,

Joe Kula: accountant.

Katie Kula: Yeah, an accountant and our, um, our banker, lender and also you, Kevin, we definitely wanna, um, acknowledge you for being our, our coach through MCM and the Mastermind. And, um, you definitely gave us some.

Joe Kula: Guidance,

Katie Kula: sound guidance and advice, especially when things were feeling very stressful and very uncertain.

Um, so we [00:27:00] wanna just thank you. Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Thank you for that. Uh, yeah, and I appreciate that. And, um, I mean, you guys put in the hard work and, um, one of the things just for clarification too, is I know you guys had the kind of first right of refusal on that. So that was why you were able to, uh, have the opportunity to match.

They couldn't sell it without you. Um, first either doing it yourself or passing on it. And so that was smart to have that in your lease from the beginning. And, and ultimately you set, you both set yourselves up to be able to handle a, a scenario like this, right? Like you've, you've put in the work, you've done well in practice, you've saved some nickels to make it happen and all that, right?

Like it would, you gotta give yourself a lot of credit that you put yourself in a position 10 years into a practice to be able to, to buy a building. Not everybody can do that, you know. And, and typically, again, like we kinda, with the EHR, usually you have, you can proactively plan that out. You, you were kind of forced into an EHR and, and typically when you go to buy a building, you, [00:28:00] it's something you're planning for and, and like, uh, it's on your terms is usually not something that's like, you got, you got 90 days to, to figure it out, but you were able to to, to make that happen.

And one of the things I loved about it was when was your, when was your closing date? What was the exact date?

Katie Kula: Our closing date was December 19th and this transaction happened in 45 days.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And you wanted to make sure you had it done that year.

Katie Kula: Yeah. We had to do all of this during the holiday season while, while making the holiday special for our children.

So yeah, it, it's definitely speaks to the idea that. Sometimes hard things are thrust upon us unexpectedly, and we are forced to deal with them no matter if we like it or not. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of, um, uncomfortable decision making that has to happen, um, in those [00:29:00] circumstances. And then, uh, there are definitely other times when.

You choose to do hard things and sometimes those feel a little more empowering, right? Yeah. Because you're making the choice to take that on because it's necessary to achieve a goal, but mm-hmm. The reality is that lessons are learned from both circumstances and, um, and, and you learn to navigate the storms and, mm-hmm.

Uh, we often, we actually live in a very windy place, so literally wind is constantly blowing through the Columbia River Gorge. And so the analogy of a tree, uh, that has to put up with a lot of wind and storms, um, the more that tree is stressed by wind and storms, the more strong its roots grow. And so we often just have that analogy of just.

We're just [00:30:00] growing more resilient roots.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely. Joe, any thoughts on that?

Joe Kula: Yeah, I think it just, our background growing up, playing a lot of sports helped, helped us. We wanted to, we've always wanted to win. And

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah,

Joe Kula: part of that is problem solving. Just figuring out how to problem solve all these challenges and, and at each stage of the practice.

Getting through these challenges has grown those roots to, to help make us stronger and also empower us to, uh, have the confidence to, to uh, uh, be able to tackle what's coming

Katie Kula: next.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. It's kind of like what you guys use an analogy earlier about what you teach your kids. One of the things that, that I've always chewed on was, uh, it's like that saying is you, you can't prepare the world for your kids.

You need to prepare the kids for the world. Right. And when, when you decide, yeah, when you decide to become a small business owner or just a, a [00:31:00] chiropractor in general, but when you really double double it up with being a chiropractor that has to take care of patients, which is hard enough. And you become a business owner is you get, you need to prepare yourself and your practice for the world, right?

Uh, versus trying to prepare the world for your practice yourself, because it's just not gonna work that way. And, and just like you want to develop resilience, kids, you, you need to develop resilience in yourself and in your business. The good news is, is that you can become even more resilient. And it is, by taking these things on, it doesn't make, it doesn't make it easy.

It doesn't like we all have the fear around it. It's just, it is just maintaining the courage around there. And then all ultimately you have the resilience and, and now you guys are on the other side of it, which is amazing.

Joe Kula: I just wanna say that, um, it's been so helpful to have a. Team of advisors to, to help with some of [00:32:00] these situations as well.

Having business coaches and your financial planner and just a support group. And, um, also acknowledging my wife Katie. She's been a great partner through all these different challenges. Just having somebody at your side to put your mind together on these things has just been so helpful.

Katie Kula: Well, I acknowledge Joe too, and it's, there you go.

It's uh, it's definitely a, um, we are stronger together. Yeah. And, um, we have endured a lot of storms and, um. It's a not, um, there are a lot of chiropractic couples and maybe there are a lot of chiropractic couples that listen to the podcast. And so it, it is a unique relationship, right when your spouse and you are both chiropractors, so we do understand each other's struggles.

Um, we know what it's like [00:33:00] to, um. I work with patients, we, we both come home with chart notes, you know, every day that we have to figure out how to get done and also take care of our kids and, uh, try to do some self care for, um, ourselves. And, um, and so, um, that part of like, we really do understand each other and, uh, what we're going through, but we also do have a shared.

Work ethic where Joe and I both do. I guess again, coming from, um, an athletic background, we, um, we both like to win and we both are not afraid to work hard. And that's been our motto from the very beginning and I think just going back to how we set us ourselves up for success, um, just the, those early grind years of when we graduated from chiropractic school and we worked as [00:34:00] associates for yeah, four to five years.

Um, the, the things that we focused on do, we were mm-hmm. We were, we were just pouring ourselves into, um, mastering our craft with postgraduate continuing education. And also we were determined to pay down our student loan debt. And, um, and I, again, I say that because that's also a hard thing worth doing, right?

Like. Our chiropractic education is hard. Mm-hmm. Student loan debt is stressful, but um, it can, it can be paid off and it doesn't get paid off overnight. Ours, um, took about 12 years and I literally drove the same car that I drove in chiropractic school until my student loans were paid off. And so, um, then that like determination and I guess, um.

Yeah. The grit. [00:35:00] Yeah, the grit and the grind to just push through that. Then we were more financially stable to buy a practice.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Katie Kula: To buy a building and so, so I think those habits. We're really important early on in our career.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, and that's what I wanted to have you guys on, 'cause I getting to know you last few years.

I, I do know a lot of your story and it's one of those things like if we rewound to when you both moved out to the Pacific Northwest after graduation, if you were to tell yourselves that in March of 2026 you would have paid off your student loan debt, you would've built a really awesome clinic gym hybrid practice that you would.

Own the building. You'd have two wonderful kids. Uh, like you would've, like you would've signed on the dotted line, like right there, right. Even if you would've said, yeah, you're gonna have to go through a pandemic. You have to have a child during the pandemic. You're gonna lose associate. You're gonna have to, it is gonna be a real pain in the ass to, to buy this building.

Um, [00:36:00] you would sign up for that back then based on where you, what you've achieved now. I, I think you would agree.

Joe Kula: Oh, totally. I remember, uh, having conversations with Katie in chiropractic school about, uh, what we wanted a practice to look like. And, and I would say what we have now is definitely that vision back, back then.

And, uh, we still have, uh, you know, more, more vision and more growth. We didn't know. We didn't know what we didn't know back then. For sure. We didn't know all these challenges that would come about. Um, but we are committed to figuring these things out so that we, we can win and, um, you know, we, we wanna optimize our, our, uh, license and our practice and, and you gotta go through those challenges to get there.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Katie Kula: We have a lot of purpose in what we do. Um, we love the community that we serve and. Um, we, we love the, the [00:37:00] patients that we have and delivering high level quality care to get them the best outcomes. Um, that, that keeps us showing up every day. And so that's another reason I think you push yourself through the hard things is because you, you know that you wanna be there to.

Show up for your patients, right? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what's, what's cool about, 'cause you guys have about 15 years under your belt now, and so you're kind of hitting into that second half of the professional career, uh, is now you've really set. Just an amazing foundation and you've set the skill of resiliency to, to navigate the other things.

And so now it's kind of just, uh, again, I use this analogy a lot I learned from a podcast is like the first half of life is, is building the vessel and the second half is filling the vessel. And now you guys are able to kind of fill that vessel of your, of your lives, both personally and professionally.

And it's, uh, [00:38:00] it's excited to keep on growing a bigger vision.

Katie Kula: Yeah, it's important to dream big and. I think it's also really important to surround yourself with people who encourage you to dream big and bigger. And, uh, that is actually what the Mastermind has been for us. And, um, admittedly, uh, I mean, Joe and I are, we are workhorses and as we've talked about, we will figure out how to solve problems, but we're not necessarily the first people to like jump on.

The bandwagon or the new idea or the new gadget. Um, but, um, we will, we, I think we eventually get there just because we work hard and we figure, figure it out and navigate our way through. But it's been really fun to be part of the Mastermind because I think it's shown us that, uh, there are. [00:39:00] Possibilities out there that we've never even thought of or dreamed of, that, um, we, we know we could achieve.

And it's been just really incredible to be part of a group of chiropractors that's. Up to big things.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Well, thanks for being the founding members of the West Mastermind in 2024. It's been, uh, it's been awesome. And, uh, you know, I just want to thank both of you for, for hopping on here. I wanna thank both of you for trusting the Mastermind group with a lot of this stuff, uh, you have going on.

And it's been cool for us to learn from you two as well. The, that's what's the beauty of it is not only, uh, do each of us learn. From, uh, the, you know, just being in the Mastermind, but we learn from each other and we provide a lot of, um, help and support for everybody. So I want to thank you for that. So

Joe Kula: thank you so much, Kevin.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Definitely. Well, thanks again and I look forward to seeing you all pretty soon.

Katie Kula: That's right.

Joe Kula: Looking forward to it.

EPISODE 461: Cognitive Distortions

EPISODE 462: The Non-Surgical Joint Replacement with Ben Fergus DC

EPISODE 463: Entrepreneurial Alignment and Optimal Leadership with Shannon Waller

EPISODE 464: Evidence-based in clinic, Gut-feel in business

EPISODE 465: The Start-Up Practice Journey with Steven Reinlie DC

EPISODE 466: The Barriers for Patients

EPISODE 467: Patient Communication in the Age of A.I. with Chris Chippendale DC

EPISODE 468: Quarterly Planning Considerations

EPISODE 469: Career Perspective and Wisdom with Rob Pesale DC

EPISODE 470: Becoming the Disc Injury Expert In Your Community

EPISODE 471: Strategically Fulfilling Your Vision with Brennan Donahue DC

EPISODE 472: How to work with Professional and Amateur Athletes with FICS

EPISODE 473: Bridging the Associate-Owner Chiropractor Divide

EPISODE 474: SEO and AI Search Update Show with Darcy Sullivan

EPISODE 475: Hard Things Worth Doing with Katie & Joe Kula, DCs

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