EPISODE 462: The Non-Surgical Joint Replacement with Ben Fergus DC

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Mastery Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry. 

Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm excited to bring Dr. Benjamin Fergus onto our podcast. This will be. The second time, but we're gonna dive into a little bit of a different topic and excited to dive into, um, his, uh, development and concept around the non-surgical joint replacement and how it pertains to knee, shoulder, hip, and what he's doing to help patients out and help chiropractors help patients out, uh, to avoid the, the actual surgical.

Uh, hip, knee, joint, uh, shoulder replacement and what patients are doing in his clinic, and then what he's doing to help chiropractors implement this system that he's developed with that clinically. And, uh, we dive into it. We dive into the, uh, the details of it, how it started. Um, I. Commend him on the naming of it.

I love it. Um, and so we, [00:01:00] uh, every so often love to have, uh, really good clinicians on here to dive into the clinical side. And then, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll provide a little bit of my, uh, business and, and marketing, uh, touch to it as well. So, without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Ben Fergus.

 Alright, welcome to the show Ben. I appreciate having you on. This is the, the first time, it's been a little while since you've been on, so update our audience on what you've had going on over this period of time.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. Thanks for having me on again, Kevin. I, I know I haven't been on in a while, but since we see each other four times a year, it feels like it hasn't been much time.

Uh, yeah. Think things are good. Uh, uh, a reminder for the listeners, I, I practice just outside of Chicago, Illinois in. Evanston and aside from my private practice, I, I hop around and teach and participate in seminars. So I've been doing a lot of teaching. Recently, I teach for some different organizations like, uh, Texas [00:02:00] Chiropractic Association.

I've been doing a series with them the past few years, both their, their big state conventions and then some little regional ones as well. I'm teaching for the Academy of Shockwave of Excellence and, uh, my time in between where I, where I'm not teaching with my own material grip approach, I'm really focused on just building my practice in terms of the people I work with and the culture that we're establishing and just leaning into that and, and, uh, I've seen a lot of benefit from that.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, it's been cool over the years. You were an original cohort in 2022 of the Mastermind, but you know, we've known each other some years before that.

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: And I think the thing that stands out, uh, to me for about you and, and a lot of our mastermind members is that, you know, you're, you're very clinically oriented, but you also are willing to, uh, dive into the business side of things and make sure that you marry.

Great clinical outcomes and, [00:03:00] and clinical delivering, uh, whether it's you or, or your, your team members, but also, you know, understanding that this is a business and we gotta make a business out of it. Mm-hmm. We, the, the better the business is doing, everybody is, is gonna benefit from that. So that's something that's been cool to see over the, the handful of years we've worked together through the mastermind.

Ben Fergus: Yeah, I, I appreciate that. I, I, I agree with you. I, I am like 110% clinically minded. Um, but the, the business helps you with that, and that, that was a big realization for me is the healthier the business side, the better equipped I can be to do what I really want to do on the in depth, uh, nerdy clinical stuff.

Kevin Christie: Exactly. Um, and it's been, uh, neat to see a lot of members in our mastermind, uh, like that. And then you obviously have the kind of the dual thing going on, which I've always admire of chiropractors, where you're not only in the trenches in your own practice, but you are teaching other chiropractors. How are you managing that dichotomy?[00:04:00]

Ben Fergus: You know, at one point I was, I was teaching this, or hosting this class, the DNS class in, uh, Durham, North Carolina. And our instructor was Brett Winchester. And the whole thing almost got canceled by this crazy snowstorm. Uh, my flights got canceled, drove through the night from Chicago. His got rerouted.

And, but it was really cool. We got, we got to chat there and I asked him a question, kind of similar to that. 'cause I, you know, he, he teaches probably a whole lot more than I do. Mm-hmm. And I, I asked him about that, that question about how you seek balance between professional life, personal life. Mm-hmm.

And he kind of, uh, joked that there really is no balance. Balance is kind of an illusion. And I took that to heart. I, not in a, like, I'm in a work all the time type of way, but. The real, uh, I think way to find that balance and equilibrium is to just really enjoy what you're doing in the moment. No matter what that is, [00:05:00] whether it's work or playing cards with your kid or whatever it may be.

It's like fully invest in the moment that you're in and that it, that, that kind of helps me. Uh, reframe the flights back home at 2:00 AM from teaching in Iowa when I'm working the next morning.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, it's, uh, I reference it off often, but Cal Newport, he's in the midst of writing a book called The Deep Life.

He wrote the book Deep Work. He, he, you can Google the blog he wrote on Deep Life, which I, I really liked. It was kind of four parts and, but one of 'em was craft, right? Mm-hmm. And, and he, he dives into those that really. Enjoy their craft and, and the process of honing that craft. You get a lot out of that.

And I think

absolutely.

Kevin Christie: I think that's, uh, sometimes onset.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. I, I think, I think craft is a huge part of it, and mission is another one, and this is definitely see this in, in my group is mm-hmm. If you don't have like a really clear [00:06:00] mission of what you're trying to do at work, then it's just work. And if you have a mission, but not everybody is on board and that mission doesn't resonate with them.

Then again, it's just a job and I don't really want to be in a position where I'm just giving a job. I, I wanna like to have a really fired up team of people that's working on a mission, and then you can lean into like the craft of it, the excellence of it, moving things forward together, and, and that really does motivate me every day too.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, it's, it's great. And, um, you know, you've been doing a lot and, and I forget how I first heard of it, but it just, uh, it really stood out to me and I, I just love when we marry great clinical and, and messaging. Uh, it might've been. It might've been Jeff Fluid, I think you hosted at his office at one point.

Mm-hmm. Maybe. Right. But was the idea of the, the non-surgical joint replacement and, and that titling of it and then applying it [00:07:00] to the hip, the knee, the shoulder, and what that is, uh, it really stood out to me. It was like, oh, wow. And then I talked to. A handful of people that have taken this course with you and, and the substances there, like the, the material that they're learning and the things they're able to apply to their practices is there.

And so it's got the, the great clinical underbelly to it. And then I, I just think it's a great title too, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm. How did you, how did you come up with this? Obviously the start with the, the concept of what you're teaching of it, and then we will work to the title of it.

Ben Fergus: Yeah, there, there's a whole lot of power in a good name.

And yeah,

Kevin Christie: there is.

Ben Fergus: Sometimes you try, try, try to get the right name for something and it doesn't work and other times it's right there. Um,

Kevin Christie: yeah.

Ben Fergus: Kind of funny story on the name. I, I had the technique, I had the approach that we're doing. And I, I wasn't thinking about teaching it to anybody else. I wasn't thinking of naming it, but I, we posted something on the social media of, you know, a [00:08:00] technique we're doing and I was just trying to grab some attention and I kind of ingest, called it the non-surgical hip replacement.

Yeah, and it just, it blew up. It resonated with a lot of people. I had like local ER docs pop in to see what it was about. I'm like, oh, there real, there's some power in that name. So we went through the process of trademarking it and kind of leaning into it and ended up naming the seminar. Um, that, but that was like a random social media caption that really took off.

But behind that is, is a really robust clinical system that's evidence-based. It's new material that supports some existing, uh, knowledge and material that we had from the research. There's a lot of new development novel approaches that are put in here to help make the attendee. The best choice for a patient to conservatively treat degeneration in the knee, the hip, or the shoulder.

And we apply the concepts to other joints, but the systems we teach are really [00:09:00] focused on hip, knee, and shoulder. And if you look at patient volume, that's pro, probably similar to an ortho office, 70% of the people seeking us are gonna be those knee cases. Um, probably our most outstanding results, like mind blowing results are with the hip.

Mm-hmm. And the shoulder is really fantastic as well, but everybody who treats frozen shoulder and rotator cuffs and shoulder degeneration knows how sensitive that joint can be in comparison to some of our bigger joints. Like the, like the hip and the knee. Um,

Kevin Christie: yeah. Abs Go ahead.

Ben Fergus: Yeah, go ahead.

Kevin Christie: No, I said it make, it makes sense to me.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. Yeah. I, when we, when we try to market, I really want to get a hundred hips walking into my office where we can prevent their need for hip replacement. And we end up getting about a hundred knees and maybe one or two, two hips trickling in. But, uh, the background of it is, uh, my clinic and my mission, like we talked about [00:10:00] before, our, our clinic mission is to resolve chronic pain in Chicago.

And then the world, and I've always been in this realm of chronic pain. It then, uh, kind of transitioned into athletic care. I, when I realized that pro athletes, collegiate athletes are often, you know, fighting through some chronic conditions. And I kind of married those together and worked that into to grip approach, which we teach.

Uh, but as, as the years went on, as I really specialized in these chronic complex cases. Early on, a lot of the sources of the chronic pain had to do with nerves. Mm-hmm. Um, that were inflamed, impinged, irritated, or injured. Uh, then we were looking at muscle and connective tissue, and as we kept going, we had more and more patients where a degenerative joint was really at the epicenter of why their health deteriorated, why they were in a chronic state of [00:11:00] breakdown, and I didn't even really think about.

Trying to have an answer for that. I did as I was trained and as you were trained, you get somebody in with grade four knee degeneration, what do you do? You get 'em connected to the best ortho surgeon, you know? Right. And you'd say like, I'll try to make you feel better until then. And I think that was the mode of operation for me until about six years ago, is just refer out, refer out, refer out, and eventually.

I had a patient who I'd helped her through a whole lot of other things leading up to this, and she came in with probably grade three needy degeneration. And I looked at it and I pulled up my reference for the best knee surgeons in the area and I was getting ready to refer her out, and she asked me if I would at least try because she didn't want surgery.

She had had some interaction to anesthesia in the past. It just, she would rather [00:12:00] not play tennis ever again than have to go through surgery. And she viewed me as maybe an option that could help her. And so even though that's not really in clinical standards, how I was operating at that day, I decided, okay, if I look at the, this degenerative knee.

And I wanted to put together the absolute best approach to slow halt or reverse needy degeneration. What would that look like? What, what does research have for us that we already know is effective? Um, what are some new things that we can build onto that research and how do we package it together to make an impact?

And that kind of sparked this journey. I dug deep into the research. I learned new techniques from uh, pm and r Docs and orthopedists. I took some of my training in Europe, applied it to this system. I looked for technology. I [00:13:00] dove deep into nutrition and really. Folded all of that into a plan that could be streamlined, consistent, effective, and we found that it was, was really effective.

It worked really well. We got astonishing results with this first patient. Um, still to this day, I think we saw her six years ago. She's back to playing tennis surgeries completely off the board. Um, the grade three needy degeneration, which she had confirmed on imaging. Is functioning really well. She can extend her knee, bend her knee, lift weights.

All of the things that we would hope for in an outcome for surgery are there in a completely conservative approach. Yeah, so that's, that's kind of the background that led into it is a patient asked me and we, we dug into it and found a way.

Kevin Christie: Sometimes those are the best ideas from, they come from the patients, right?

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Um, now let's take that particular patient, you know? Yeah. What is a treatment plan? Obviously it's all different, but what [00:14:00] are we looking at as far as, uh, potential frequency and duration? Sure. Uh, did we, did you guys, uh, package up certain things like, okay, you're gonna do some rehab for the hip?

Mm-hmm. Or, you know, like, give us a little bit of insight of what that looked like. Just so you know, it's, it's obviously, it's a, it's a framework. Every treatment plan is gonna look different, but just want to get people to have a context. Yeah.

Ben Fergus: It is a framework.

Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Ben Fergus: It is actually a, a pretty highly structured framework.

Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Ben Fergus: And, uh, just to preface that, if um, if you had a, an orthopedic problem, like you thought maybe you needed a hip replacement, would you go to your family practice MD and ask them if they would do a hip replacement for you?

Kevin Christie: No,

Ben Fergus: probably not, right? They, they, they don't have that exact, they're an md but they don't have that exact skillset.

But let's say we go to that same family practice [00:15:00] MD and you give them, uh, some anesthesia, a surgical saw. Uh, a new hip joint and some nurses to help, would you then ask that doctor to do your surgery? Is that, is that enough supplies for them? No. No. Right. It's, it's, they, they're not specialized in the right way to do that procedure.

Yeah. And even if you load them up with all the same tools, all the same equipment, that's still not the right person to put all of that together For your hip replacement, you want to go to somebody who actually has not only a framework, but a consistent result of we have to do A, B, C, D, 1, 2, 3, 4, and then we're gonna get the the right result.

And so what I've found in doing all of this is there's really good chiropractors, just like there's really good. Family medicine doctors who you could go and ask, Hey, will you work on my hip? And then you could [00:16:00] give them a bunch of the same equipment that we use and say, okay, will you work on my knee? Um, but really getting the framework and the whole system down consistently and getting the training to do that.

What's gonna elevate them to actually get the results? 'cause these are not easy cases. Yeah. With training and systemization, we can make them much easier, much more effective. But as I get into the system, I don't want people to necessarily just go dabble, throw in darts at it, and put and put the name non-surgical joint replacement behind it.

That's why we trademarked it so we can kind of control what that looks like in the clinic setting. But yeah. All of that aside, what the system looks like is about an eight week program. Mm-hmm. It's eight weeks in the office. They have to continue to do a few things on their own. Afterwards, in those eight weeks, they're gonna work with me two times per week.

Me or my, my team here. On each session that they come in, we're gonna [00:17:00] be addressing their joint health, not only in the degenerative joint, like the knee, but we're also gonna look at the chain. We're gonna look at the SI joint and spine be, be good chiropractors in that regard. Look at the foot.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: We're going to be using some existing and some novel capsule mobilizations to put some load and change into different aspects of the capsule around the joints. We're going to be treating that. Entire area and some specific areas with radial and focused shockwave therapy. Mm-hmm. And if you have access to it, we have a protocol that brings in, uh, extra corporeal, magneto transduction, EMTT, which is like a superpowered pimp machine, which can really, uh, synergistically amplify what you do.

Mm-hmm. And then they've got really crisp grip style rehab that can be run. By the doctor or by the staff of the doctor to build up, um, what they're [00:18:00] doing movement wise. Mm-hmm. They have to repeat some of the movements at home and we like to pair it with BFR. If they're a little, uh, too small on muscle mass, adding some muscle mass and strength will be really helpful.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: And we try to get them on a specific dietary protocol as well. We, we need, if we think about the language that we have to be able to communicate with cells for change. We essentially have load. And repetition over time, but all of that is washed in the body's biochemicals. Yeah, so those are the three things that we can affect.

We can affect how much load goes into the cell, how often it's rep repeated over time, and what kind of biochemicals it's washed in. So the, the nutritional component is to wash all of those cells, supply all of those cells in better biochemicals so that we're essentially starting kick, starting a healing process.

That will go on for three months to a few years for the patient.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I love [00:19:00] that. And it, one thing, again, we, we try to hang our hat here at MCM is, you know, marketing can be great, but I think we all hate when marketing is lipstick on a pig. And, you know, we, we, we, we do see it often where good.

Messaging really doesn't match up with what they're getting in the office. And, and too many times people do slap good, uh, ideas or, or, or names on things. But then you go there and it's just like, yeah, you're getting your hip distracted and you're getting, uh, you know, a, a couple basic exercises and, and they're gonna call that.

Uh, maybe a hip replacement, non-surgical, you know, so it's, mm-hmm. We don't want that. And it's really, you gotta have the substance in, in the, in the meat of it. And then no matter what, what, what, what we're talking about today, or just any in general, bring the clinical goods, however that looks like for you.

You know, like I've got. Some members or people I know that are just, they just do a RT, that's literally all they do. But they stay in their [00:20:00] lane and

Ben Fergus: Yeah.

Kevin Christie: And that's what they do. And if they need something else, they've got a good chiro or PT to do the other thing and, and, and, and so their substances, the a RT only, or you know, the adjustment, whatever it may be.

Um, so you have to bring the, the clinical chops of what you do and, and feel great about, and then be able to package it where patients can understand it. And I think that's what's. Awesome. Here is, is obviously you got all the backing of what you've done over the years with the clinical side, and then you've packaged it well named it.

Well, uh, that's one thing I learned at Strategic Coach is, is unique naming can really go a long way. 'cause people can, they can picture it, it resonates with them.

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm. And,

Kevin Christie: and they say yes. Like I, I want, I want my knee to be. Functioning well and not, um, hindering me from what I want to do, but I don't really want to go do the knee replacement.

It's, and as some people are 47 years old and their knee is, is shot, they definitely don't want the knee replacement at 47. Uh, mostly, absolutely. [00:21:00] So it's not just the 70-year-old that we're, we're talking about here. So can you give us a little bit of a, what kind of, you mentioned earlier athletes and chronic pain.

What are the range of people you're seeing getting results, uh, from this, from this system?

Ben Fergus: Yeah, that's, that's a good perspective. Um, I think I'll try to answer that in two ways. Part of my expected prognosis with my limited, honestly my limited sample size. This would be different if I had 20 certified practitioners that have 20 years of data.

It's, we've got a handful of people that have been doing this for five to six years now, so that's my data pool. Um, we grade the level of degeneration in the joint, grades one through four, four being the ones that are true bone on bone. You can hear the stones rattling together when you move the joint.

That's true. You know, grade four. So we've run this on grade one through grade four [00:22:00] and in different joints. It's, it's slightly different, but. At across all ages, our success rates with grade one degeneration are greater than 94% success rates in grade two, depending on the joint, it ranges between 80 and 87%.

Success rates. In grade three we're in the 70 to 80% success rate marks. Grade four, I, I can't really name a percentage on that. It is much more hit or miss. Um, we've had patients where they've made 60% improvement on their oats and functional assessments, and greater than that in, um, their subjective reporting that I would look at that knee and still say, yeah, you know.

That one might still be a surgical case. Mm-hmm. Um, we've had others where they got really good results, but they wanted to run a half marathon [00:23:00] and they didn't think they could still run that half marathon. So they made a choice to go on. But I, I would say a grade four. I, I really make my patients ask me to approach it with that one still, um, because the results aren't as consistent as grades one through three.

But to color that a little bit, I think most of the really severe joint degeneration that's seen in a chiropractor's office are usually grade three or grade two. That's, it's rare that a grade four gets to you. Honestly, in this stage, um, most of those are already on a surgical plan. Um, so if we're talking about grade three, where I'm seeing across all joints in grade three, a 70 to 80% improvement, and we compare that to.

What most hospitals set a mark at for successful outcomes on an intervention, which is between 30 and 35% for most hospitals would be considered a successful intervention. At that point, we're [00:24:00] doubling what would be considered a successful outcome and a completely non-invasive approach for those grade three.

So it really opens up a lot of cases in terms of age range. Probably the youngest person we've taken this approach with was a 21-year-old football linebacker with a rather significant labral tear. No osteoarthritis but labral tear in their hip. And the oldest patient that I've taken through this approach successfully is an 81-year-old that had, um, complex rotator cuff tear, um, acromial osteoarthritis, and early stages of adhesive capsulitis.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Nice. Nice. Yeah, it's, that's one thing I think I wanted to, you know, get some clarity. I, I kind of knew the answer, but, uh, for the audience, just, yeah. It's, it's not just the 70-year-old, [00:25:00] right? Mm-hmm. It's, there's a lot of people wanting highly functional joints. Oh, for sure. For their age.

Ben Fergus: It's a lot of people that are picking up, running in their forties or, you know, tenants or pickleball in their thirties and their body's not doing as well as they envisioned it doing.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, just recently had an ex professional baseball player. He is my age now. And, uh, yeah, his right hip is, is, is toast. Um, but he's managing as much as he can and so,

Ben Fergus: mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Uh, a lot of people out there that are, are still wanting, they're still healthy, young and wanting to function at, at a high level, so.

Ben Fergus: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Christie: Um, you know, I think one of the things too with this is that if one were to go through. You're training with this, you're, you're gonna gain, you're gonna gain a level of clinical competence, which is gonna lead to clinical confidence. And then you ultimately would have the conviction to be able to, um, you know, offer this in, in your clinic.

Mm-hmm. And, and promote it when you are, uh, [00:26:00] trained in this and be able to communicate with that patient with a certain level of, um, I wanna say, um. It's not a guarantee. And I think that's the thing I want is like, it's, it's conviction around, it's like, yeah, I have a, I, I feel good that we can help you.

And obviously based on the grading of the, the degeneration, you're gonna be honest with that patient. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then you're gonna have patients that are going to, uh, get a lot of benefit from something like this. And, uh, you're gonna really change some lives.

Ben Fergus: Absolutely.

Kevin Christie: Um, tell us a little bit about what it looks like, the different types of, um, training opportunities for something like this.

Uh, anything coming down the pipeline in person. I know there's virtual. What, what does this look like to, to start to get some clinical confidence around this and be able to implement in your practice?

Ben Fergus: Yeah, I'd love to share that. And actually, even more than that, I'd love some feedback from your listeners.

I, I've been involved [00:27:00] in chiropractic continuing education since 2011. That's when I hosted my first course, uh, overall, and I think that whole. Business and opportunity of furthering your skillset has changed dramatically in the past five years. Mm-hmm. Uh, definitely a much bigger push towards online training, remote training.

Obviously I'm doing a lot of in-person business training with you, which, which I, I love the in-person setting. Um, but I think the whole thing is different now that we can get the majority of our CEUs from the. Comfort of our home or our vacation spots. Just a different experience. So I'd, I'd love to hear from your listeners how they are getting their CEU and their skill advancement, uh, currently.

And I'll let you know what we offer.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: My emphasis is still being in the room with somebody and helping them gain their hands on. Excellent [00:28:00] skillset. So we have some upcoming courses in, uh, may in St. Louis. We're doing a combo course of non-surgical joint replacement and one of our classic grip courses with another mastermind member, uh, Tony Kataki at his facility, uh, in Chesterfield.

We are running a few similar combo courses at my clinic here in. Chicago, Evanston and those combo courses, day one is one of the joints of the non-surgical joint replacement. Mm-hmm. So we'll pair like a knee non-surgical knee replacement with our grip lower extremity course on the following two days.

And that gives you a really in-depth learning over a three day weekend.

Kevin Christie: Mm-hmm.

Ben Fergus: One full plug and play system for the non-surgical joint replacement. And then pair it with the in-depth grip approach that you can train yourself or your staff in. So those are some in-person ones coming up. And then we've [00:29:00] built out a, a pretty incredible online platform as well, which is learning at your own pace.

That's at grip approach.com, and we have a three day. Nonsurgical Joint replacement summit. That's all virtual. Mm-hmm. We filmed it over three days in my clinic, high definition video with a professional videographer. We clipped that into, uh, crisp long segments that range from eight to 12 minutes, and then we further clipped that down into a one minute quick reference guide.

So as you go through that course, you receive the material the way you would in person, but then afterwards you can go back and search it and really quickly pull up an isolated technique to refresh your mind or train your staff. And that online virtual summit is also, uh, available for pace credits if you're in a pace state.

Kevin Christie: Hmm. Nice. That's awesome, man. I love it. Yeah. [00:30:00] And uh, yeah, I took a look at it. The virtual part looks amazing. Um, very professionally done. I, I must commend you. I've done a lot of online courses and stuff. It's not easy.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a unique challenge for the chiropractor skillset.

Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely.

But, uh, yeah, this is great and we'll put the information in the show notes as well, uh, on how to link to that and, and get going from it. But it could be a great opportunity in 2026 to advance clinical, uh, skillset and then be able to package it, you know, and, and be able to mm-hmm. Understand how to go out there and, and really help with these particular, uh, conditions.

So, great work.

Ben Fergus: Yeah. Thank you. I, I think on that point, and considering this is a, a marketing and, and business podcast. If you do this and, and do it well, it, it's a really big benefit to the business side of your practice. Um, and I've, I know I've spoken on that in a closed room setting with the Mastermind, but [00:31:00] this is really the way I envision chiropractors moving is into a more specialized skillset where they're not being viewed as.

Let's see if an adjustment would work for this.

Kevin Christie: Yeah,

Ben Fergus: they're being viewed as the real. Conservative expert in helping somebody overcome joint degeneration, and by getting the training and eventually promoting it, you really quickly become that expert in your community. And. Because we're doing an advanced technique that requires some extra training and extra equipment, it's, we charge a good amount for it as well, a healthy amount.

That's really good for the practice, but it's not absurd either. It's something that patients can make a decision to do and and hopefully say. Hey, uh, maybe I'm gonna skip the trip to Cancun this year and get my hip feeling good so I can go next year. And I, I've had a patient say those exact words to me like, this isn't a travel year, this is a [00:32:00] health year, and ultimately you're setting your patients up for.

An incredibly healthy lifestyle after they work with you on this joint because everything that they're learning to do are like the foundations of health that we all know about, and this gives you the opportunity to make it real for your patient and for them to buy in and to do the things that are gonna make their life better afterwards.

Kevin Christie: Yeah. I love it. I love it, man. That was great. And um, we'll put that in the show notes. I look forward to seeing you in a couple days in Park City for our mastermind. I know this

Ben Fergus: absolutely

Kevin Christie: episode will come out after that, but looking forward to talking, uh, business with you and, uh, having some, some brown drinks.

Ben Fergus: Absolutely.

Kevin Christie: All right, Ben, have a good one.

Ben Fergus: You too. Thank you.