EPISODE 420: Leadership in Private Practice

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry. 

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Welcome to our show. This week we have Jeff Moore, who I'm excited to have on. He's a physical therapist from the Institute of Clinical Excellence, uh, other otherwise known as PT on ice. And, uh, also has a franchise model of physical therapy clinics. And we dive into the topic of leadership and, and Jeff's definitely a dynamic guy and, and brings a lot of great insights into leadership and leading.

A team leading your patients, uh, leading your family. Even if you apply some of these principles, and it's not your kind of cliche stuff and your, uh, charismatic leader type of things, uh, but he has a lot of good insights on what it takes to be an impactful leader and you can get better. And I think that's a, a big part of this as you can get better and we have a great conversation on some of the things.

Uh, that they're doing in the physical therapy world and how they're, uh, changing the, the model in a sense and in how they, uh, lead other providers and then teach those [00:01:00] providers to lead their patients and their teams. And we, uh, dive into that. And it was a, a very fun conversation. We had a great time, I thought, and I, I know I learned a lot, uh, from it.

I just thought he had some really good answers to, to questions and, and I've, um. Discussed this topic, uh, quite a few times over the eight years of this podcast, and I thought, uh, leaving this interview, I, I was better for it and definitely heard different takes on what leadership is. So, uh, this isn't your, uh, typical, uh, conversation about leadership skills and styles.

So I think you'll get a lot out of that. So, without further ado, here is my interview with Jeff Moore.

Alright, welcome to the show, Jeff. I really appreciate your time today and excited to dive into, uh, leadership in, in private practice. But before we do, I wanna set the context for our audience. So, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself first, and then we will dive into your company and what you guys do.

Jeff Moore: Yeah, you bet. Kevin, thanks so much for having me on. Uh, I'm from Fort [00:02:00] Collins, Colorado. Uh, kind of been a physical therapist for the past, uh, 12, 15 years in varying levels of, of focus, um, on that part of my career. As other things have kind of grown. You know, we started the teaching company in 2012, so that'd be, you know, over a dozen years now.

Um, it's called the Institute of Clinical Excellence, and it trains wide variety of rehab providers, uh, PTs, OTs, chiropractors, physicians. Um, we have coaches that come to some of our fitness athlete courses. So kind of a, of a broad range of, of targets there. And as that got busier, like 20 17, 20 18 really started taking off, you know, where we were doing multiple courses a weekend and getting a lot of traction, we found that a lot of the folks that we were, uh, training.

Weren't able to implement what we were teaching because their clinics, you know, didn't have a squat rack or a run of kettlebells. We do a lot of fitness focused stuff and uh mm-hmm. That was a problem. Ka It was kind of depressing. I mean, these folks would reach out and say, Hey, I love the courses, but I can't do this stuff.

And we said, well, okay. In 2019. We decided, let's just start opening clinics, you know? And that way if [00:03:00] someone is in an environment where they can't do this stuff, but they want to, we can create homes for them. And that was kind of the, the genesis of Onward Physical Therapy. We put the first one in Charlotte in 2019.

I think we have 42 locations now, um, across the country. Um, and again, a lot of it comes from. Folks will take ice physio courses, get really fired up and take a few classes and be like, man, I really want to practice like that. Then they'll reach out and say, can I jump into one of these onwards? So they, they kind of grow each other, I guess, from that perspective.

And nowadays, Kevin, that's what I do. I, I spend time mentoring clinicians at Onward and then mentoring faculty over on the ICE side. I'm not out there actively teaching anymore. I go to a lot of the classes and give notes and try to make sure that our curriculum is. Is synthesized well together and symbiotic across no matter what course you take.

And, um, and day in and day out. That's where I spend my time. Ah, love it. And, uh, you know, I'm sure 42 locations and also a teaching program is real easy to lead. Yeah. Nothing to it. Nothing to it Every day is, is [00:04:00] calm and no issue. Yeah, exactly. Um, is there, if there weren't, you'd have problems, right? If there was no issues, then you know you're not doing enough.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Uh, that's right. Are, are these franchisees locations the onward? Yeah, so we started off in a licensing model and then we converted, actually, we're actually actively locking up right now. The very end of that process, you know, we can offer a lot more in a franchise model, you know, with a licensing model.

Jeff Moore: There's some state by state restrictions on kind of how much support, um, that you can actually leverage. And so realizing boy. Strength, the size can really do a lot for these locations. It just made sense for us to convert over, and so we went from a licensing model over to a franchise model. Perfect. I just wanna tease out a couple of aspects of each company and then we'll, we'll dive into the leadership, uh, topic.

Dr. Kevin Christie: But from the, the teaching company, what, what are just some of the, uh, pieces of equipment you'd love a clinic to have? You mentioned squat, rack, and kettlebells. What are some of the other things there? Yeah, those are big ones right there. You can do a lot with a squat rack and a, and a good set of kettlebells across all ages and stages, right?

Jeff Moore: Mm-hmm. And that's kind of how ICE is designed. Like we've got [00:05:00] certifications for a fitness forward approach for every age and stage. So whether you wanna work with. Older adults or the pregnant and postpartum individual and athlete, or the recreational fitness. We have a series of courses that develop your skillset to really over deliver for that population.

And the two things you just mentioned, I mean, if you get a really nice squat rack and you get a good run of kettlebells and you've got some rubber flooring where you can drop these things and really get to work, I mean, that's gonna be a big part of it. Beyond that, we need some level of cardio equipment, a thing like an Echo bike.

Um. A rower is a bonus. Mm-hmm. But the echo bike or the, or the assault bike goes a long ways to be able to get the heart rate up and do interval training. And it tends to be a very approachable piece of equipment compared to like, if you're looking at every age and stage, the treadmill is probably not as applicable.

Um, as maybe something like an echo bike and then a really nice manual therapy table because we do a lot of body work, a lot of cupping, a lot of needling, a lot of manipulation, mobilization. People need to be comfortable, and as you probably know better than I do, really be able to work around [00:06:00] that person's body and, and get the job done from a hands-on perspective, I.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. No, absolutely. And, and I first heard about your, your, uh, training programs around all this because, uh, Dr. Ashley Jordan, who is one of our associate coaches for our company, and then also her partner, um, her partner Brittany, they talked about 'cause they wanted, started going and they've done a lot of clinical things, right.

So it wasn't like this is the first thing they've been to. And so they've been to a lot of different types of clinical aspects and they said they, they, uh, they never come back more fired up than when they come to one of your, uh, I think she calls it ice. Is that an acronym you guys use? Yep. Right. Yep.

And that's for the institute of, uh, clinical education, uh, clinical excellence. Yep. Excellence. Perfect. Yep. And so I actually calls it and she's like, they're just fired up when they come back from that. And so we were chatting about it and then we kind of dove into the idea and conversation around leadership with you because, you know, it takes a level of leadership to be able to have other coaches do a lot of the coaching, like you mentioned too, but then also to replicate what you have in the clinic.

Give us a little bit of with [00:07:00] onward, um. I'm assuming it's physical therapy based, but is there any other, uh, what is it like a front desk person, physical therapist, uh, maybe a PTA, uh, trainer. What are some of the, the, the essentials of what these clinics are like? I. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question because when we first started this, you know, we thought, you know, we don't need to do this.

Jeff Moore: Right? It's kind of a passion project, and the whole idea was what does perfect look like to us? Right? So meaning the amount of time with patients, the clinical environment, the way they interact from the moment they see your first Instagram post or hop onto your website to the moment that. They're feeling like a million bucks, like that journey.

How do we perfect as many time points along that as possible, and for us, at least for now, the model is very, very simple there. It's one-on-one with a physical therapist for 60 minutes and there is no front desk person, right? The beautiful thing. Now we use Jane as our EMR or electronic medical records.

Super, super streamlined. I've known the Jane founders and friends over there for [00:08:00] years up there in Canada. They do an incredible job, but what they allow is. For there not to be any sort of interface or necessary interface with, you know, we don't bill any insurance, right? So we're a hundred percent cash based across, across the board.

So no third party payers, that includes federal. So it's literally a 100%, no exceptions cash based clinic, which again, we thought we want to create a model that is where we think the future's gonna land. I'm not trying to say that other models don't work or shouldn't work or be utilized, we're just trying to look way out there and be like.

What can we do to prove the future, if you will? And to us it was a one-on-one, 100% cash base, completely patient provider interaction only. We have no assistance, no techs or any other disciplines. Yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense. And obviously with technology now, uh, it, it makes it a lot easier. We're very familiar with Jane.

Dr. Kevin Christie: They've definitely, um, they're big into the chiropractic space as well, and so there's a lot of capabilities there. And you know, now with certain technologies like two-way texting and obviously there's softwares out there where you. Store the [00:09:00] credit card one time and you Yep, you do that. Uh, even if you run a recurring revenue model, that's easy.

Now with technology, one of the things I'm excited about, uh, as it keeps on going is I, I, I keep on diving into the AI stuff like everybody else. Uh, it is almost becoming cliche, right? There's people diving into the AI stuff and then there's people like really actually diving into AI stuff. I'm kind of like.

Kind of, kind of diving into the AI stuff, but the thing that fascinates me is the idea of the AI agents, and I'm not sure if you've looked into that much, but I know like LinkedIn founders talking a lot about it. Or Salesforce founders. Sorry. Uh, just the idea that at some point we may have these AI agents that you would train on your systems and, and your, you know, model just like you would a human and they just do all the stuff for you essentially.

Jeff Moore: Yeah. Yeah. I have not dove deep. I certainly keep an eye out. I, I'm curious what folks are doing. You know, our, our system is logistically light, for lack of a better way of putting it. You know, we see five or six people a day. [00:10:00] Our documentation is simple because we're not justifying anything to insurance companies.

We're just keeping track of folks and making sure that we know what we're doing. Mm-hmm. And obviously have a record ready if it's ever needed. Um, but because of all of that stuff, and no front desk person, no insurance to bill our like. Logistical demands mm-hmm. Are quite low at onward. Yeah. Our interpersonal demands are incredibly high, right?

Like everything is in person. The follow-ups are consistent and thorough, and there's a lot of them. We tweak programming. There's a lot of hands-on with the person, but very little like logistical, busy work, if you will. Yeah. No, it makes sense. And I think that's something that, uh, obviously allows for more margin, right?

Dr. Kevin Christie: That's always the, the killer of a lot of healthcare industry, um, models, whether it's the hospital or, or a private practice. And so you're kind of able to have better margin, which is nice 'cause we all, we've all. Seen 'em, you know, clinics that generate a hundred KA month, but spend 99 KA month. Right, right.

It's, it's the saying that I love, and I think [00:11:00] it's Westgate, is, uh, it's volume is vanity, profit is sanity, and cash is reality. Right. Ooh. And, uh, he came up with that one. I, I steal it from an often and it's just true. Right. And so you people, I think. Uh, I think, uh, clinic owners and, and, and doctors need to start looking at ways where we can streamline things so that we can maintain a, a level of margin.

But I want to dive in. You, you, you mentioned a phrase or term I really liked there, which was interpersonal demand. And I want to, maybe that ties into my, my kind of first question on leadership for you. But, um, over your years of working with a lot of different types of providers and different scenarios.

What are some of the, and, and you may start out with that interpersonal uh, skillset, but some of the qualities you see from your doctors and physical therapists, um, as far as leading these, um, businesses and these practices, what are some of the qualities that you see in these effective leaders? Like you said, we're in the business of humans.

Jeff Moore: Right. So the [00:12:00] interpersonal thing is a non-negotiable. I mean, if, if you can't work well with people and build relationships mm-hmm. Not only your patients, but in the community, you're a non-starter. Right. So I, I think like that's baseline across the board that has to be there. But when you look at what makes people exceptional, you know what I've found, and like you said, the datasets pretty thick now, watching providers try to be successful.

It's the people that themselves believe in what they're selling the most. Yeah. That's the number one thing. So like when people call me all the time like, Hey, what are the criteria for, you know, becoming an onward clinician? And I'm like, well, you know, you gotta get some ice training. You know, that's kind of our standardized system.

Mm-hmm. And yada, yada, yada. But what it really comes down to is. How much do you actually believe that putting fitness on somebody is the elegant solution to chronic disease and most of the plagues that are sweeping across this nation, like how much do you really believe it? Do you live this way? Like do, are you about it every single day?

Like, are you leading from the front? Are you in the gym? Are you getting other people into the gym [00:13:00] with you? Are your kids in the gym with you? Do you believe that this solution is urgent? Awesome. And can you show me a track record of that? Over the past 10 years, like people that believe that they will infect other people with that belief, but if they don't.

They won't be able to sell. What I mean, they'll find ways to kind of eek by, but they'll never get into that flow state where they're selling naturally because all they're doing is exuding what they sincerely believe to be true authentically. Yeah. That conviction is so priceless, and I think a lot of times there's some people that are able to override what they believe and have a level of conviction or kind of.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Uh, snakey that way. Uh, but you typically, I think what we see in a lot our niche of chiropractic is the evidence-based chiropractor. Um, that's who we are. That's our audience. That's who we work with. And a lot of them do struggle. I believe they, they kind of get in the Miro of the evidence and they want to cross their, [00:14:00] uh, t's and dot their i's on every like inch of evidence before they will think.

That it's something they want to provide for someone. And I think they get in their own way a little bit. And I, again, I'm not saying they should, uh, believe or have conviction in something that they don't believe in, but I think that's something that a lot of the chiropractors that I, I, you know, talk to and see that are struggling is they haven't sold themselves on what they are are and what they do.

And like you said, being about that, and ultimately that just permeates the whole. Office, the team members, the patients, and they wonder why they can't get buy-in from everybody. Yeah. No, that's a great point. I've seen, I've seen different versions of that, you know, over the years. Yeah. Where that belief is incomplete.

Jeff Moore: You know, where, where you see it the most complete is people that have lived that way, but also people that have banged themselves up living that way. Right? Like you start going to competitions, whether it's CrossFit or high rocks, whatever you're doing, you're gonna get tweaks and sprains. Well, if you smoke your own dope, for lack of a [00:15:00] better term, and, and, and you go and see a high quality manual therapist, right?

You get manipulation, mobilization, soft tissue, and you get some great exercise prescription and it helps you and you feel like, dude, thi this stuff's real. Like the more that you challenge yourself, bump into hurdles, find ways around it, get back up on top. The more you go through this process, when you're looking at that patient saying, we're gonna get through this.

That has a completely different level of meaning to that patient when they can see in your eyes, like, because I've done that, I've been here before and I we're gonna, I'm gonna hold your hands as we move forward. It's, it's just so much different. Yeah, so when you're, a question I keep on wrestling with, and maybe you have some insight on it, is if you find that person that's, um, got a lot of good skill sets, you know, personable, good bedside manner, uh, good person, you know, let's call, they'll say they're, um, intrinsically motivated clinically, they're, they're good, you know, they got all the, all the table stakes there, but you just see there's a.

Dr. Kevin Christie: A little bit [00:16:00] of a, a, a hole in that, uh, believing in what they're offering or that conviction. Um, is there a certain level where you say, you know what? I think we can really onboard this person, train them. We're gonna start with some of the, um, results, the evidence. I know you got the, with ice, that probably helps.

Is there a sort of like where you dive into like, let's just, let's just. Inch them up a little bit more on the clinical side or talk through them on why this stuff does work or anything like that. Or is there a point of no return where you's like, they got a lot of skillset, but they just don't, they don't have that belief in it.

Jeff Moore: That's a great term. You just used that, that point of no return because that, that person's not a no. Right. I mean, there's a, a lot of the things you just said, I mean, there, there's a lot of buckets that are filled there. Yep. Sometimes those people just need. The level of mentorship around them where they can hit some real home runs.

Mm-hmm. Because sometimes that clinician is either newer or you are moving into a more effective model from [00:17:00] one that maybe wasn't quite as effective. And if they have a clinician around them that can do case reviews every other week, that can come alongside and offer some insight to get a patient from saying, you know what?

I think I do feel a bit better. Two. Yeah. Doc, whatever we're doing together, I've made more progress doing this than anything I've done in the past five years. You can only hear that second one so many times until you believe it, but sometimes it requires a mentor who already has that gift to get a little bit more of a high touch environment around that therapist to get them a few reps where they hear that, and now all of a sudden the snowball's rolling down the hill.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Jeff, that was one of the best answers to one of the worst questions I've had on the show in eight years. I, I phrased that question in all kinds of weird ways and you take, tease it out perfectly. So I I thank you for saving me on that one. But, uh, yeah, you know, the, the mentorship thing is, is a big one, and I, I, as you were talking, I was like, you know what?

That's really what kind of saved me early on when I was in chiropractic [00:18:00] school. I, I don't know how familiar you're with chiropractic school, but it can be a mixed bag and, you know, I, and I, I really liked the school I went to, but that first year I was kind of. Going down, like not really finding my, my traction of the, the type of chiropractic that I wanted to practice.

I, I went to, I was an athlete growing up. Then I, I went to Florida State and, and was exercise fizz and on the strength conditioning program there, and I. I wanted to work with athletes and when I got to Kyro school, I kind of just wasn't finding that. But then I found a mentorship wi Within Motion Palpation Institute and a couple of the docs there, uh, Mark King, Brett Winchester at the time, and, and Corey Campbell, and now they're still at it 20, 20 years later, which has been cool.

But that gave me. Confidence in and some conviction. I still kind of sucked when I graduated, right? Like, like we all all do, do we? Yeah, we gotta get a lot better. Uh, but I, I knew that I had been exposed to some doctors that really knew what they were doing, and when I had them work on me, I, I [00:19:00] felt such a level of difference and, and it was great.

And, and that was a, that was a key thing to us. So I think a, I think, you know, a take home here for our audience is if you find yourself in that. Kind of, uh, that chasm of like, look, you're a good doctor and you're a good person and you got all these qualities that are good. You're just not getting across that chasm into what you're talking about with that conviction and, and really believing in what you're doing.

And maybe it is mentorship that that can help you. Maybe it's me, mentorship clinically, maybe it's mentorship leadership wise, or understanding business a little bit, because I do think that's some, that's obviously what you're. Um, onward solves for these PTs is that they don't have to worry about so much of the business side of things, which is, which is great, I'm sure.

Uh, and a lot of these doctors listening to our audience, uh, to our episode today, they are in the Miro of clinical and business and maybe they don't have any confidence around business, and it's seeping into their confidence as a. As a provider in general, and they go into that treatment room and it, again, [00:20:00] it's, it's pretty evident that this person is just not, uh, confident right now.

Right. Does that sound accurate? Maybe? Absolutely. And, and I do think the only solution there is to either get that person some wins or get them around someone who's getting regular wins so that they can look and be like, look, there's something, there's something I'm not doing, but it can be done.

Jeff Moore: Believing that right there is enough, right If, if they can just see that and be like, it's not a mystical ghost, like this can work. I just need to learn something that I don't currently know. As long as they believe that we'll get under the finish line. I love that it kind of reminds me of a, of a concept I learned, and I can never remember the book at some point.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I'm gonna actually look it up so I can reference it appropriately, but, uh, skill stacking, right? The idea of skill stacking, and I think we, that goes unnoticed as we progress, right? So I'm, I'm 20 years out of graduating, uh, chiropractic school and when I graduated, um, [00:21:00] I didn't have a lot of skills, right? I had a skill, uh, uh, of, of being a chiropractor to, to.

Pass boards and to get a job. And I had a, I had to really refine that skill and it takes time. And I was, I I, looking back on it, I feel like I was, I did the right thing. I really focused on my clinical really strongly for the first five years. And I did a lot longer after that, but I was all in, uh, then I was like, you know what, um.

I had to build a practice, you know, a couple years into it. And so I was out in the community and I was doing public speaking and, uh, doing all kinds of different things out in the community. So I built a skill of, um, communication and kind of overcoming my fears a little bit. And then I opened up my own practice and realized like things were going, really going good, and then insurance got bad and I had to figure that out.

And I, I jumped into, I'm a member of Strategic Coach, if you've heard of that. They're a entrepreneur coaching group, and I needed a. I need to really get that skill of being an entrepreneur, which is a kind of multilayer one. That kind of layer that kind of led me into, uh, marketing and learning that. Yeah.

So I kind of just was stacking these [00:22:00] skills and, yep. And is that something that you see some of the best leaders do is like, okay, maybe they're, they're coming out strong with a couple things, but then they're, they're always willing to learn and, and, and develop new skills that they can then package into, into a whole, uh, product as a person.

You know, it's funny, I think when people look at. Ultra successful people. You know, whether it's that doctor who's waiting list is just, you know, three months long, no matter where he or she goes, um, they tend to feel that person has an extraordinary talent. And I almost find that's never the case. They just have a tremendous amount of micro talents that summate I.

Jeff Moore: Into an incredible human product. Mm-hmm. That's what it is. They, they have done, like you said, interpersonal skills, manual therapy skills, business skills in even inside of those, there's so many niche, but they just keep adding one more thing. They're competent at. The summation of all of that is extraordinary, but it's not the individual things that are extraordinary.

They are basic [00:23:00] competencies. There's just more inside of that person because they've done the work to create that. And then the synergy of all of that comes together looking like quite the extraordinary product. And so I think that, I hope people hear that because if you think it's the other one, if you think like someone just has a crazy gift or whatever, that's a little bit disheartening.

'cause it's like, well, maybe I don't have that gift. But when you realize that these exceptional people are really just people that took the time and had the discipline to truly earn a long range of symbiotic talents and gain those skills, that's the outcome. Anybody can do that and anybody includes you.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I think that's one of the misconceptions of leadership is people just only think of the charismatic leader, right? That, you know, they wake up and, and they're, you know, dripping in charisma when they, you know, when they walk outta bed. And there's people like that. I mean, it'd be nice, right? I'd love, I ha if I had that.

But I think one of the things that I had to develop over time. As, as it pertains to [00:24:00] confidence in my own leadership, which that it, it comes in different packages. Mm-hmm. And, and it doesn't just mean that you are, you know, a charismatic leader that, yeah, that's nice, but there's a lot of quiet leaders.

There's a lot of people that are, uh, you know, like you said, it's some of the characteristics of discipline and, uh, you know, maybe grit and stuff like that will also be really good forms. Of leadership. And so I think that's been the journey I've been on is getting comfortable in my own skin on what my leadership style looks like and, and how, um, how that works.

Right. Is have you, have you noticed that with some people, like there's just, you know, different leadership styles and there's no way of like plugging into one thing? Well, I think what's so important about that discussion right there is, especially for your audience members who are looking to build like serious teams, like, and I only, I only say serious from a sense of scale.

Jeff Moore: Like it's one thing a person can be a great leader and have, you know, five or six folks that are working with them or under them. I don't like the term under them, but you know what I mean, in a hierarchy of that [00:25:00] nature. But if you're looking to expand where you're gonna have a team of. 25 or 50 or even beyond that, the one leader solves all doesn't work.

Because what you really need is a group of leaders that are different kinds of leaders. Mm-hmm. You, you do need the charismatic leader. That person's generally gonna be able to inspire. They're gonna be a visionary. There's a lot to be said for that person. But that person is not worth their weight in anything.

If they aren't supported by a leader who is more logistically oriented and maybe a bit more realistic and maybe, you know, some of the, then we need a great communicator. Like there are, as you begin to develop serious organizations, you need to have your eye out for a blend of leadership that is, you know, more a whole than the sum of its parts, if you will.

And that's what too. Somebody who's looking for leadership in that company can identify in those different people what they need right then. Mm-hmm. That can't happen if you're one person. So I really want folks, if you're thinking [00:26:00] about going big, you really need to think about architecting a team that has a variety of those leadership styles, because that really, if you're looking to create something special that is a requirement.

Dr. Kevin Christie: No, it makes sense. And I think about, we joke around, we have a mastermind group and I'll, I'll, uh, I'll talk about the East Group for right now, but, um, you know, I lead that group. But then Kurt Kippenberger, who's one of our associate coaches is, is kinda my right hand for that. And, uh, he's a lot more fun than I am.

He's, uh, he's got that charisma, he is got that magnetism to him and it, it really helps with, uh, managing that room of 25 doctors. And so it's, uh, yep, you, you need that sometimes. Yeah. And, and, and you've gotta be humble enough to seek your opposite. And that's one, that's one reason a lot of leaders sealing out is if you are a leader and you're working with a really talented person who has shared vision and shared interest, common goals.

Jeff Moore: They're [00:27:00] kind of annoying for you to work with. You should really consider working with that person more, right? 'cause the odds are they're bringing something into your, into your ecosystem that you probably need in a gap. You probably have. So I always tell leaders to seek their opposite. Right. You've got you covered.

Now you need to look at where are my gaps and how can I hire them and the allies that bring alongside me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm, I'm even noticing that a little bit with, with our doc here, me, there's two docs in our practice and we're really in a good, good phase right now. And, uh, Dr. Gage is very systems based, which is awesome.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And it's ironic 'cause I. I preach systems a lot and, and try to teach it to our, our, our clients, but I'm just not good at actual systems and, and implementing it. But having someone that is, has really helped in noticing a difference with that. So sometimes you gotta be honest with your, your weak links.

Right. I I love that. I love the humility that you say that with, because that goes so far of like. I see so many people not wanting to [00:28:00] admit they're weak in an area. Mm-hmm. And so they grind like crazy to get mediocre in an area where they're not gifted. And it's like, boy, if you would just hire out your weaknesses, this could, you could do so much more for so many people if you would stop this obsession with doing it all, you know?

Yeah. You know, that's been the, uh, you know, kind of a, you know. An honest moment in the struggle of like coaching chiropractors like I do, is that it's impossible for any chiropractor that's, let's say coaching someone on all things to have a, a, a successful practice to be good at all those things. And I would be like, God, am I really teaching on this subject or talking to this chiropractor about this subject when I'm really, actually.

Shitty at it. Um, you know, but I, I, I think you, you, but I, I think the thing is is I'm, I'm in a position where I get to interview people like yourself where I can kind of collect and catalog really good, uh, ideas and lessons from that. And I can convey that to a, a client and say, okay, I may not be the best at this, but I know this is what you need to do.

'cause [00:29:00] I've talked to people that have done this successfully and there are certain people that have that unique ability, right. Yep. Absolutely. That's it. You, what did Einstein say? You don't have to know everything if you know where to find it. That idea that that's it, right? Like there's a lot of times where I'm like, okay, you're asking me something that I know If I was in your shoes, I would not be able to execute at an awesome level.

Jeff Moore: I can get you going in the right direction and I can sure as hell find you the next person that's gonna bring you to the finish line. I can get you those resources and being a resource dealer at the end of the day. How connected you are, how many folks are talking to you? Oh, that right there. You don't need to have the skills, but you gotta know where they live.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I like that term resource deal. I'm writing that down. You got a bunch of those. Are you from the south originally? No, I'm from the opposite. I'm from upper mic, upper Peninsula of Michigan, up by Lake Superior. Really small town up by Canada. A lot of people from the south have all these great quips. And so, um, last little topic, and you can punt it if you want to, 'cause it's a little bit of a, a sidebar, but I'm sure you'd see and deal with it a lot.[00:30:00]

And that's kind of the overwhelm and, and burnout of things like where, you know, a young provider or even not a young provider just doesn't see the forest or the trees on how to. How they'll be able to develop certain skills that they will be able to overcome. That it feels really hard right now. Uh, but it doesn't mean it's always gonna be that hard.

And sometimes when you're uncomfortable, it means you're growing. It doesn't mean you're facing overwhelming burnout. And I, uh, I do believe there's a lot of people that, um, actually, you know, they, they do suffer from that ordeal that, or they're coming up against that. And I know healthcare's really hard.

It's tricky because we. We deal with people all the time that are in pain and they're struggling and we have a level of empathy towards them, and then we have to also go home to our families and our kids, and we like, there's a lot on our plates. I, I, I do get that. But um, I think like a lot of things. A lot of people, uh, get a little uncomfortable and then they're basically equating it to having a condition.

And again, I don't, I'm not saying that the discount, the people that actually are dealing with that, [00:31:00] but I just think there's, it's okay to be uncomfortable and overcoming that and learning to overcome that or solve those problems, uh, is going to get you further and you will learn how to address that to where you don't face.

Burnout because kind of going back to what we said earlier, if you had no problems and everything, every day was easy, like you're probably not doing anything right? Yeah. Um, so what are kind of your, some of your thoughts on helping people, um, you know, understand where they are, if it's getting to that point, or some strategies around it, ideas, anything around that.

Jeff Moore: The biggest thing I tell people is stop trying to do it alone. Right. We, we all, we always talk about if you wanna go fast, go alone, but if you wanna go far, go together like that. That phrase is near and dear to my heart. Mm-hmm. And especially in the burnout phase, because what you need to be in. Is a system where, 'cause at the beginning of your career, you're not supposed to be where you [00:32:00] want to be.

Right. You're, you're supposed to know where you want to go, but the beginning is never the optimal circumstance. Right. And we, and we take that on knowingly, however. Mm-hmm. You do want concrete examples and guides that you believe are going to eventually get you where you're trying to go. And so being in a system where you're working with people that.

Have the life that you are ready to earn. Right? And you're willing to go through some troughs to get there. Yeah. But you also know they're going to help you. This goes this. This is right back to the same conversation about having folks set examples of really overdelivering for patients so that you can see you're gonna be there one day.

The same is true for life in work-life balance, or however you want to use nomenclature around that. You gotta be in systems. Where the more senior folks, you're like, gosh, I want to be there one day. And they say, I want to get that person here one day. And they're making vested commitments to you so that they're bringing you along and [00:33:00] helping decrease friction on the journey.

It will not be easy, but if you know it's possible, 'cause you see it every day and that person's pulling you along, mm-hmm. It won't happen overnight. But you trust it'll happen. I think that not believing it's ever going to happen or not having a great example or someone showing you the staircase, that's when the overwhelm gets you.

It's not supposed to be easy, but to not have a map makes it feel impossible. Have a map and that's your crew. That's a big, yeah, that's a big point. I was actually having a conversation with my associate and also one of the, we have a PT group that rents me here and they're both, you know, late twenties and, and I'm 45 and I, I love being 45.

Dr. Kevin Christie: You know, it's just like, uh, it's not easy. It's a little bit AER than it 27 and stuff like that, but I feel good about, okay, you know what? Not that I'm settling by any stretch, but, uh, I got across that chasm into a certain level of, okay. Uh, this career has turned out well for me. Totally. And I said the hard part is when you are [00:34:00] 27, 28 is for the most part, you probably don't know yet if this, uh, is gonna work out.

It's, uh, it's like you're going and it's. Dark out there and you don't know where you're going and you're hoping that you find the, uh, the path. And, uh, but I, I try to explain to 'em as like, look, you know, you guys are doing a right, a lot of the right stuff, and that is the, that at, at 26, 7, 28. The, the success is the fact that you are doing the right things, in my opinion, right?

Like, yeah, we'd all like to have more money, we'd like to have more of this, that, or whatever. But at a certain age, when you're younger, the success is the process and you're sticking to it and having that belief that you're gonna get there. And I, I love how you just, you kind of phrase that if at any point if you're listening to this and you're dealing with it, maybe you just aren't seeing that path.

Or maybe you don't have the right mentors, like you said earlier, and you, and you need to find that. And a lot of times that can, uh, help you overcome it. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:35:00] Yeah. And I, I hope, I hope members hear that. 'cause the burnout thing is real. I mean, it's prevalent, it's out there, it's, it's a real challenge.

Jeff Moore: But if you're grinding, like you just said, like that 27, 28, I love that. Age is so fun to observe. Like I said, I'm mid forties too, so I, I, I feel the same way. You do. I had a great mentor one time tell me that if you work. Hard when you're 25 to 35, you'll play for the rest of your life. If you play when you're 25 to 35, you're gonna work hard for the rest of your life.

And for those that are out there, 25 to 35 and you feel like you're grinding, I think that you're setting yourself up for a really. Enjoyable. It never gets easy. We don't want it easy. We wanna keep being shaped by life, right? But it gets awfully enjoyable as you begin to crest that 35 to 40 age, and all of a sudden you're doing a lot of things that are elective and that mean a lot to you, and that phase is coming.

If you can just get through the storm. Yeah. And I think what's interesting about when you do get to our age and when you do have, [00:36:00] uh, what's unique I think also is we have two levels of schooling, right. Uh, obviously the high school stuff too, but let's just take you like your undergrad. I have a bunch of undergrad friends, and then I got a bunch of chiropractic school friends.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Right? So you probably have a lot of undergrad friends, a lot of PT school friends and Yep. And you, so you got two different dichotomies of careers, obviously. Um. But I can look back in the ones in particular, the undergrad friends. 'cause I was like, if you ended up going to PT or chiro school, you're probably a level-headed dude.

And you probably, you know, you probably kind of like work hard, but obviously not every chiro and PT are where they want to be in their mid forties. But I look at some of my undergrad friends who are now 45 and they just. Dicked around for so long, and now they're just in careers that, like it paid the bills for a while, now it's not paying the bills.

Or it's like they hate it or they're getting laid off in corporate America and they're, they're struggling. The, and that's, that's a hard place to be. So it, yeah, it's, it's much easier to struggle when you're younger and put in the hard work. And like you [00:37:00] said, you'll be able to really, um, enjoy the fruits of that work.

And again, not that it's easy, but it, it, you have a level of, um. Really satisfaction, I think, in what you're doing. Yeah. And you, your autonomy only increases. Part of the reason that early years are hard is you're in that phase where you're doing what you have to, you don't have a lot of elective with your time and, and anyway, you don't have a big enough patient following that.

Jeff Moore: You can set your ideal hours and people will fit your hours, right? Like you've gotta meet them where they're at. But just know that with every passing year. That softens every year. And so pretty soon you're like, man, I'm still working a lot. But that's great 'cause I love it and I love what I do and I love the results of it, but I'm also doing it a bit more on my terms.

And I think as you begin to feel that the energy of your life really kind of re gets more exciting, I think, in a lot of ways. And so again, if you're like, if the weight of the world's on your shoulders, it doesn't stay there. Mm-hmm. It doesn't, and it, and it does get easier, especially when [00:38:00] you keep on learning and you keep on learning from, from mentors.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And so, uh, Jeff, this has been, this has been an absolute, uh, pleasure. Uh, I'd love to give you an opportunity to, to tell, uh, where they can find you both, you know, whether they want to learn on the clinical side or if they want to see what you got going on at, at onward. How can they find you on each, um, platforms.

Jeff Moore: Yeah, you bet. So on the clinical education side, just go to PT on ice.com. We, uh, we own every domain that has the words, you know, Institute of Clinical Excellence in it, but that one tends to be the most direct route for most people. Everything's on there. You know, you can download our app, which makes it easier.

So we have an ice physio app, so you can go on Android, um, or um, I iTunes or iStore and get the iPhone app or get the Android app. That has our whole community. So like all of our online courses, all of our live courses, we have tons of free resources. We've got, you know, communities that we share things in.

We've got book clubs, marathon clubs, we've got a big community in there. So jump in there and you just kind of mix it up with us and you'll see all the options we have available. And then [00:39:00] over@onwardphysicaltherapy.com. If you want to go there and look at where all the clinics are, kind of, you know, where can you jump on board, where don't we have one?

Right? If you ever want to be involved and think about planting the flag somewhere, um, those are all really good spots to kind of connect with us. Yeah. And I want to, uh, challenge my, my audience a, you know, most of 'em are chiropractors, but um, a lot of them do a lot of rehab now. And that's great. Totally.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And so, and that's where, you know, Ashley and Brittany got so much how to go into your, uh, trainings there. And I, they've been to multiple, which has been awesome. And then also maybe you just need to find a good PT clinic to refer to. 'cause I know we refer to PT often when it's just something that, um, we don't do in-house.

Uh, obviously post-surgical, we don't do. Or if they really need a level of. You know, we could sit here and talk about an hour on who could really use great pt, especially the advanced level pt, right? Return to sport and things like that. Sure. So if there's a gap in what you offer, check out, see if there's one of your, uh, clinics there onward is, uh, where you'd look at that.

And so cool to see the, you know, hopefully we get, get you on here again and, uh, maybe have you come out to one of our masterminds one year and, and [00:40:00] we, we bring in guest presenters and. You know, we pay and do all that stuff. And so, uh, but I'd love to see the growth that you got going on here after another couple years.

Jeff Moore: Yeah, I'd love to circle back. I'd love to join you all live. Whatever makes sense on your end. Cool, Jeff. Well thanks for your time today. Yeah, thanks so much for having me.